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e e e e e e good morning the subcommittee on space and Aeronautics will now come to order without objection the chair is authorized to declare recesses of the subcommittee at any time and welcome to today's hearing entitled advancing

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scientific discovery assessing the status of NASA's science Mission directorate I'd like to recognize myself for 5 minutes for an opening statement today's subcommittee hearing will review the activities of NASA's science Mission directorate R SMD and

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discuss the challenges and opportunities for ensuring success in these activities scientific research has been a core function of NASA since the agency's creation NASA's science missions have helped us to learn more about our planet discover secrets of the

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sun explore our solar system and better understand our place in the universe SMD has had many recent successes the perseverance and curiosity rovers are adding to our understanding of Mars and and enabling us to someday send humans to the Mars and

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surface the Parker solar probe continues to deliver unprecedented observations of the sun just six months ago Osiris Rex returned asteroid samples of to Earth to be studied at the Johnson Space Center SMD also carries out some of NASA's most

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important work by cataloging and defending our planet from near Earth objects however we cannot celebrate these successes without acknowledging the challenges that NASA has faced on missions of all sizes just three weeks

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ago NASA's office of Inspector General released an audit of the Mars sample return Mission commonly known as MSR that NASA hopes to launch in partnership with the European Space Agency before the end of this decade anyone who has

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read prior reports on NASA's science missions from the Inspector General GAO or other independent review bodies will see familiar themes uh in this audit project management challenges including over optimism on technology development

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evolving architectural requirements and underestimating costs are but just a few of the challenges identified by the Inspector General this committee recognizes the immense value of the MSR Mission we continue to hope that these issues will

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be resolved and that the MSR Mission will be successful however we cannot ignore this now familiar pattern of schedule and cost overrun for many NASA programs when missions are delayed costs increase as a result Ripple effects are

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felt throughout NASA as time land shift and unrelated programs are delayed or cancelled to accommodate the troubled project members of this committee undoubtedly recall the years of delays and billions of dollars and cost

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overruns before the James web Space Telescope was launched another mission the psyche Miss of spacecraft finally launched in 2023 after more than a year delay which incurred significant costs impacted other missions such as the

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veritus veritus Mission and we want NASA to engage in bold daring missions but Congress must direct NASA to take on these missions with a clear understanding of the associated costs and risks consistent cost overruns and delays can result in other worthy

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missions being postponed or cancelled and can cre can create a reluctance for Congress to provide additional funding or even approve such missions in the future Congress has a responsibility to weigh the cost of a mission with its

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scientific value and cannot simply rationalize cost overruns and scheduled delays by stating the end result of these missions will be worthwhile that is unacceptable to our constituents and should be unacceptable to us all this committee has long

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supported a balanced approach to NASA scientific missions across discipline and Mission type I expect that that will continue in the future future at congress's Direction NASA relies on the decadal process carried out by the National Academy of Science

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to prioritize its scientific activities this process seeks a broad range of community input to reach a consensus position on priority missions for the following decade recent decadal surveys across disciplines have recommended

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ambitious missions and optimistic budgets this committee recognizes the importance of the the Cal process but must also recognize the current fiscal environment and plan accordingly the focus of today's hearing is not to Chad

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NASA folks but rather to understand the challenges that NASA faces when fulfilling decal priorities we also want to be sure that both Congress and NASA are applying lessons learned from previous missions uh to facilitate

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future Mission successes I thank our distinguished panel of guests this morning and Witnesses for joining uh with us today and I look forward to a productive discussion and I would like to now recognize the ranking member for

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his statement for five minutes thank you chairman and uh I join the chairman in welcoming everyone uh to today's hearing uh we also thank our exceptional panel uh today of witnesses for being here to share your expertise thanks to the

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science mission directorate NASA is conducting reconnaissance of every planet in our solar system studying the Sun and near Earth environment better understanding Earth Systems and probing the evolution of stars galaxies and the

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early universe as a scientist myself the only meteorologist in Congress I'm eager to highlight the importance of NASA's work to our nation and to my constituents back home in Western and Northwestern Illinois take for example

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the study of earth science a field which NASA's first ofit kind Earth observation investigations are helping improve something near and dear to my heart our nation's operational Weather Services these Services inform the study of

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trends of severe weather and tornadoes flooding droughts which lead to how we use our land this data can then be used by Farmers across the Midwest and around the country as an example NASA's heliophysics programs to study the sun

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which help us predict solar storms that can disrupt vital satellite Communications and GPS signals speaking of NASA's scientific study of the Sun Communities around the country will soon have an opportunity to learn firsthand

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about our closest star on April 8th a total solar eclipse where the moon passes between the Sun and the Earth turning day into night for a few short minutes will be visible in s several States including the southern portion of

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Illinois most of the country including communities in Central and Northwestern Illinois will witness a partially eclips and so I will remind everyone the science scientists in Congress that we Advocate you only use one of these when

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you're taking part in the solar eclipse but also I'd be remiss to say it was one of the greatest parts of my life driving from Illinois to Wyoming to see the last eclipse and the profound impact that it had on me personally

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the opportunities for pursuing important science are vast however our fiscal resources are not the science Mission directorate has many projects ongoing but we do not have unlimited funds that poses a problem because we need to

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balance between and among the projects under the science mission directorate to maintain a healthy distribution of funds to small medium and large missions large high priority missions with significant resource demands have the potential to

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upset the balance within and across NASA's science programs today's hearing provides an important opportunity to examine the nature of this balance and how we can pursue ambitious and larg missions while maintaining the overall

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health of the science Mission directorate portfolio I'm eager to find Solutions because leaving high priority science on The Chopping Block is not the future that I want to see for the next generation and for our country I'm proud

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and excited about what the future holds for NASA's science programs answers to so many important challenging and inspiring questions await us I look forward to working with the chairman NASA and the administration as well as

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stakeholders to ensure a bright and bold future for the space and earth science programs undertaken by NASA and I yield back Mr chairman thank you Mr sson really appreciate it uh and now I would like to introduce our distinguished panel of witnesses today

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uh our first witness today is Dr Nikki Fox uh Dr Fox serves as the associate as the associate administrator for NASA's science Mission directorate uh where she oversees the directorates portfolio of over 100 individual Mi uh missions

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previously she served as the Director of the science directorates heliophysics division prior to joining NASA Dr Fox worked as the chief scientist for Helio physics at John Hopkins University's Applied Physics laboratory during her

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time at the Applied Physics Lab Dr Fox also served as the project scientist for NASA's Parker solar probe we're looking forward to hearing from you this morning our next witness is Mr George Scott who I'd like to welcome back to

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the committee he did a great job with Patton a few years ago too I just wanted to let you know I guess that shows my age Nobody seen the mov GE Pat Mr Scott serves as the acting director general for NASA uh he assumed the role in

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January of this year having previously served as the deputy Inspector General prior to joining NASA Mr Scott spent over three decades at GAO which included serving as the managing director of gao's Homeland Security and Justice team

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thank you for being here sir our third witness is uh Dr Jonathan lenine who serves as the David C Duncan Professor uh in the physical sciences and chair of the Department of astronomy at Cornell University he is also a member of the

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National Academy of Sciences and has chaired or co-chaired numerous advisory and strategic planning committees at the Academy and also at Nasa this includes chairing the giant planet systems panel for the 2023 planetary science and

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astrobiology decle Survey Dr lenine is also a co-investigator on NASA's Juno Mission and previously served on the science working group of the James web Space Telescope and our Final witness today no stranger in here uh is Mr

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Thomas Young the former director of NASA's Goddard space flight center is also the former COO of Martin Marietta and chairman of SE C Mr Young began his career at NASA's Langley Research Center uh throughout his 20 plus years of

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service to NASA Mr Young has held various roles including the deputy director for NASA Ames Research Center prior to his time at Goddard he is a member of the National Academy of engineering and a former member of the

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NASA advisory Council so I would like to now uh recognize Dr Fox uh for five minutes for your opening statement your testim Mar thank you thank you so much uh chairman Babin ranking member senson and distinguished members of the

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subcommittee uh thank you so much for the opportunity to appear here today it is always great to have chance to talk about NASA's science program and NASA's efforts to address fundamental questions about the universe and Humanity's Place

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continue to advance the United States role as a Global Science leader as you know NASA uh released our FY 2025 budg request which includes 7.56 5 billion for the science Mission directorate this request supports over5 uh space science missions

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including 54 that are preparing to launch uh in the in the next few years and over 70 that are in operation the request uh funds us scientists in universities industry and government Labs through more than 4,000 openly competed research Awards the missions

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and the s undertaken by NASA are informed by the priorities laid out by the nationaly uh but funded by you of course uh the Congress on behalf of the American people we're grateful for the congress's continued support of Space

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Science which has produced some stirring successes and I'm just going to highlight a few because I only have five minutes uh as we enter its second year of operation the James web telescope uh continues to provide breathtaking

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results with each captivating New Image leading us closer to unlocking the great secrets of our Cosmos the Osiris Rex as you noted delivered samples from the asteroid benu uh to the Johnson Space Center and these pristine samples uh

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more than twice the requirement that was returned are effectively time capsules from the earliest days of our solar system from like 4.5 billion uh years ago uh NASA is also adding two missions to its earth science Fleet this year uh

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first the pace mission to study our atmosphere and ocean and the ecosystem was successfully launched from Kennedy Space Center on February uh in February of uh of this year and then the second one is nysar that is our first uh joint

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Mission first joint mission for earth science with the Indian space research organization um and uh they are uh that's going to scan the Earth in kind of minute detail down to about a centimeter resolution uh with a first of

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A- kind duwel band radar our investments in commercial Luna payload services or Clips are uh beginning to bear fruit the first company in the world uh to make a successful soft uh landing on the moon was American we're very proud of them

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and it carried NASA and Commercial payloads to the Moon South Pole region this has also been a big year for the heliophysics division uh we noted two major solar eclipses the first one very unusual an annular solar eclipse that

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occurred in October when you would have needed those glasses for the whole thing um in in coming up from Texas all the way up to Maine uh as you noted on April 8th uh we hope you find a way to join us um now we've given you glasses so you're

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all set to go eyes will be well protected um and if you cannot get yourself to totality fear not NASA science will bring totality to you uh our biological and physical sciences division just presented their initial decadal response uh to the academy as we

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drive forward with more and more discoveries about living and thriving in deep space later this year uh as you noted Parker solar probe the coolest hottest Mission Under the Sun will make its closest approach to the sun uh it'll do its

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seventh Venus flyby and it will go closer to this uh the Sun than any spacecraft has ever come to a star um we're also approaching solar maximum uh which offers science opportunities related to these space weather hazards

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we look forward very much to the launch of Europa Clipper later this year in October Clipper will search one of Jupiter's moons uh the Europa moon for what we believe is a vast ocean that may hold evidence of life we continue our

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work to protect the planet from asteroids with our neoa which is expected to launch in 2028 and both Clipper and sea a Joint Nasa Center and GPL efforts work continues on the Roman Space Telescope which is a NASA Observatory designed to settle essential

0:28:20

questions in the areas of dark energy exoplanets and infrared astrophysics and we look forward to maturing the Technologies that will be necessary uh to someday see planets that may Harbor life there are also challenges to

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overcome as you've highlighted our mission to return samples from the surface of Mars has proven to be more costly than initially expected in September um an independent review of the Mars sample return program provided sobering analysis of the costs and

0:28:49

challenges associated with this Mission this spring NASA will complete an internal assessment of the mission architecture options and will inform inform the path forward and allow us to provide final details for this plan for

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the planetary science budget NASA takes very seriously our responsibility to manage a very diverse portfolio within cost and schedule commitments we continue to learn from our experiences and we have instituted new policies to

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ensure we're constantly improving our ability to manage cost and schedule it's our willingness to acknowledge these challenges and overcome them to conduct science in ways that have barely been imagined that makes us so thank you once again uh for inviting

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me to appear before you today and I really looking forward to answering your questions yes ma'am thank you very much Dr Fox now I'd like to recognize Mr Scott for five minutes for his testimony uh chairman Babin ranking member senson

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and members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting me here today to discuss NASA's science Mission directorate My Testimony focuses on key challenges the agency faces in managing its science portfolio including developing accurate and timely estimates

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funding instability and Workforce capacity issues throughout its history NASA has been at the Forefront of incredible scientific discovery and the agency continues to do the unexpected for example the Mars Ingenuity helicopter the first aircraft to fight

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under its own power on another planet surpassed two years of operations and completed 72 flights despite its long history of success some of NASA's most impressive scientific missions the hobo telescope the Curiosity Rover and the

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James Webb Telescope all experienced significant cost increases and schedule delays the extra funding and time needed not only impacted these missions but also created cascading effects across the agency's science portfolio as we have frequently reported

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NASA struggles to establish complete credible and transparent estimates this is particularly true when it comes to large complex missions NASA's history of setting unrealistic costs and scheduled baselines is due in part to the agency's culture of optimism

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as we said over a decade ago a culture of optimism and can do Spirit are essential for realizing groundbreaking scientific achievements and overcoming extraordinary technical challenges that said the same optimism May prevent

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leaders from critically assessing cost risk and schedules to determine what can realistically Al be accomplished within a set budget and time frame to its credit NASA has taken some actions to address its cost and scheduled challenges for example in 2020

0:31:40

SMD completed its large Mission study that examined how the agency makes critical decisions that impact Mission and program success however NASA has yet to incorporate the recommendations from the study into its practices and guidance

0:31:54

for Flagship missions also in 20 the agency established the chief program management officer position to strengthen oversight and implementation of program management policies and best practices funding instability remains a

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concern unstable funding whether in terms of the total amount of funds allocated to a project or the timing of when those funds become available can contribute to poor outcomes for example inadequate funding early in a project can decrease management abil

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to identify and address key risks early on in other cases moving tasks to later in the project may require managers to keep a larger Workforce than originally planned also resulting in increased costs there's also the instability

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resulting from Appropriations that lock the agency's funding at the previous year's level for extended periods these uncertainties further compound the difficulties in effectively managing projects Workforce capacity remains an

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issue for NASA we have identified attracting and retaining a highly skilled and diverse Workforce as a top management challenge for the agency as early as 2018 we highlighted Workforce capacity issues at the jet propulsion

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lab we are similarly concerned that other centers face the same challenge for example the godded space flight center faces a heavy workload with large projects that are competing for a limited number of technical workers even

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as these missions plan to Launch in the next three to five years NASA has repeatedly demonstrated its ability to overcome significant hurdles to accomplish amazing things however these achievements have often taken longer and cost much more than

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planned many of the agency science missions are ambitious Endeavors and they need to be grounded in more realistic assumptions and estimates without this it will be difficult for Congress to make informed decisions about NASA's long-term funding needs

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likewise the agency will lack information needed to make difficult decisions on how best to allocate limited funds and prioritize future missions we will continue to support NASA in achieving its scientific goals while ensuring transparency and

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accountability for these efforts thank you thank you Mr Scott and i' would now like to recognize Dr lenine for five minutes present his testimony thank you very much chairman cabin ranking member senson and distinguished members of the

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subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to present my views on the status of NASA's science Mission directorate it is difficult not to feel passionately patriotic and proud of what our nation has accomplished in space science as a scientist and academic

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whose entire career has been spent working on NASA programs I am grateful to have participated in the development and execution of some of the greatest space science Odyssey ever undertaken the Voyager flyby of distant Neptune the

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Cassini exploration of Saturn the ongoing Juno Mission at Jupiter the Europa Clipper Mission set to launch this October and the James web Space Telescope the accomplishments of our nation's space science program over the

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past quarter Century are too numerous to recount but we've all tried to list a few of them at least and I'll try my hand at this as well the discovery of an ocean capable of sustaining life in two moons in the outer solar system at least

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europ at Jupiter and Enceladus at Saturn the first exploration of the sun from inside its atmosphere the probing of ever more ancient epochs of the universe with Hubble and web and much much more and the investment in space science that

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the US has made over the decades is paying off an unexpected ways for example the web telescope is teaming up with other space telescopes like the the Chandra x-ray Observatory to give us unprecedented views of cosmic processes

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over a vast range of the electromagnetic spectrum from x-rays to the infrared I want to turn now to Mars where the nation's prowess and space technology will be most on display in the coming decade two incredibly capable

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Rovers designed and built with American Technology by NASA's jet propulsion laboratory have been roaming the Martian surface over the past decade in search of the clues to how Mars went from being a very earthlike world to one that today is

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inhospitable this is a profound question because its answer May well tell us how fragile the habitability of our own Planet might be how did Mars dry up exactly when did Life begin on Mars and then die off as articulated by NASA

0:36:53

advisory groups in two successive decadal surveys of the National Academy of Sciences answering these questions will require bringing samples back to Earth both planetary science decal surveys identified Mars sample return as their highest

0:37:08

priority why so as we learn more about Mars and ask more detail questions instruments of increasing sensitivity resolution and sophistication are required eventually exceeding what can be plausibly carried in a spacecraft in

0:37:24

laboratories on Earth powerful analytic techniques can detect protect faint Clues to the earliest history of Mars and to the possible presence of traces of ancient life it is not enough to have these sophisticated geochemical tools in

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the laboratory the samples must come from a place on Mars that was once earthlike NASA's perseverance Rover is in such a place right now jezero crater at the crater's Western end is a dried up River Channel and an enormous

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delta-shaped fan of sediments depos deposited at the time that that River ran this one complex region holds the potential for answering a host of questions about the geologic and climate evolution of Mars and perseverance is

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collecting samples carefully selected to provide those ansers but to realize that potential requires getting those samples back to Earth Mars sample return is the most ambitious robotic program ever attempted Bar None much of the

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technology is new and challenging having served as a member of the second MSR independent review board I am supremely confident that it can and will be done it can be done because American engineering prowess is up to the task it

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will be done because as a nation we surely will not simply walk away from a daring highly visible and scientifically important challenge in closing let me point out that more than a half century after the first moon rocks were returned by the

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Apollo Astronauts science is still being done on them today by instruments far more capable than those available in 1969 when I was 10 years old the samples returned from Mars in the coming decade will be analyzed not only by scientists

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alive today but by scientists who are not yet born using laboratory techniques that are not yet invented these precious records of early Mars will be a lasting scientific treasure and the legacy of American technological prowess thank you very

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much for having me here today thank you very much for your testimony uh I would like now like to recognize Mr Young for five minutes thank you chairman Babin ranking member soron committee members I'm pleased to have the opportunity to present my views on

0:39:49

NASA's science Mission director great organizations achieve Great accomplishments NASA's sign transmission directorate has a legacy of Great accomplishments my examples of Great accomplishments by SMD are Viking Hubble

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James web Space Telescope and hopefully More Sample return others might select a different set with equal Merit it would also be a mistake not to recognize the incredible contribution of projects from the sound and rocket and balloon program to

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projects such as Parker solar probe and weather satellites what are the characteristics of projects that result in Great accomplishments today projects such as jwst and MSR originated from decadal surveys the national Academy's decadal

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surveys are comprehensive surveys of a scientific discipline such as astronomy and astrophysics to identify the number one priority project for development by NASA the surveys provide a mechanism for the scientific Community to speak with

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one voice in identifying the best of the best projects that result in great complishments travel extremely difficult development paths projects in projects in this category um push the boundaries of what is possible this aggressive approach is NE

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necessary to obtain extraordinary scientific results such as jwst results that are being experienced today the difficult development path these projects follow are populated with Incredible engineering cost and management challenges most if not all

0:41:48

are threatened by cancellation so what are the keys to the success of these projects that must test the limits of what is possible possible clearly the exceptional people that make up the project organizations in NASA Academia and Industry are key

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Superior leaders are required to provide bold and Visionary leadership leadership that recognizes corrective action and not cancellation is necessary to achieve Great accomplishments these scientist engineers and leaders do not simply walk in off the

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Street their result of rigorous Hands-On development and being trusted with significant early career responsibilities NASA has a history of exceptional employee development this development effort will be even more important as SMD pursues more

0:42:47

challenging projects in the future next I would like to discuss MSR today MSR is in the balance as to whether it will be allowed to follow the path necessary to become an SMD great accomplishment or will it become a monument to a missed

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opportunity I do not want to minimize the technical cost and management problems identified by the independent review board the problems are significant as are NASA's and our country's budget challenges MSR is identified as the number one

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priority in the past two planetary decadal surveys the expectation is clear that when the samples are analyzed and the highly capable earth-based Laboratories MSR will join the SMD Legacy Great accomplishments today the future of MSR

0:43:45

is in the hands of NASA Congressional and administration leaders B Visionary leadership is needed to put MSR on a path to success the future of SMD is populated with Incredible opportunities many are focused upon civilization's great question are we

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alone we must continue to improve our project management capabilities to realize the potential that the fut future holds my thoughts on some of the required improvements are cost estimating better cost estimating of most probable cost and not relying upon

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lowest credible cost cost or for early decision making is required systems engineering improved systems engineering is needed to develop architecture and interfaces that are the simplest possible to achieve project objectives employee development

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developing scientists engineers and leaders will continue to grow in importance contracts with industries that focus upon buying Services as opposed to hardware systems integration operations Etc minimize development opportunities SMD strategy a balanced

0:45:05

SMD strategy is a worthy objective however implementing projects such as Viking Hubble jwst and MSR will likely not be possible without accepting some impact on other activities this should be acceptable to accomplish Great

0:45:24

accomplishments project management future projects will require the full capabilities of NASA this includes NASA's Senior Management the science Mission directory and the NASA centers including Center directors project managers and their respective

0:45:40

organizations the Hallmark of a great organization is the willingness to accept difficult challenges to achieve Great accomplishments I believe SMD is such an organization and that the future of SMD will be bold exciting

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scientifically rewarding and a source of great national pride thank you very much thank you uh I appreciate all of you Witnesses for your testimony and now I would like to recognize myself uh for questions for five minutes uh Dr Fox NASA stood up an

0:46:16

internal group to develop a response to the second independent review team's assessment of the Mars sample return uh program when will NASA be prepared to share the results of this internal review with Congress we want it to be

0:46:32

successful uh thank you so much for the question uh we are wrapping up um the uh putting together the results uh they will be available in the spring um and uh so but literally as soon as we can get them to you we will good today I

0:46:47

think is the first day of spring you don't have it ready Spring's a lovely term right all right well thank you Congress also for you Dr Fox Congress directed NASA to discover and characterize at least 90% of the near Earth objects are

0:47:05

NEOS that could cause significant damage if they collide with Earth NASA is years behind the deadline that Congress set to complete this survey which is one of really the only one of the few tasks that NASA is directed by law to complete

0:47:21

the Neo surveyor mission is an important part of completing this survey and what is the status of the Neo surveyor Mission uh happy to say that Neo surveyor is is on track it will uh launch in 20128 and we really do appreciate the support that we've had um

0:47:38

to keep that mission funded through even this challenging year so uh Neo is looking good good deal thank you Mr Young in September 2020 NASA's office of Inspector General the oig released a report on NASA's planetary science

0:47:54

portfolio uh the the report report highlighted NASA's challenges in adhering uh to Discovery class Mission cost caps in particular the report stated that even when excluding launch vehicle and operations cost none of the

0:48:10

discovery missions are under the 500 million cost cap what are the consequences of breaching a cost cap does does a tolerance for cost cap breaches have an impact on program discipline for future Discovery class missions and how are other non-discovery

0:48:27

class missions in the pipeline going to be impacted when these cost caps are breached summarized it pretty well that will happen um it's it's important to look back as to why the cost breaches and one of the items is that we

0:48:46

continually for good scientific reasons select more and more challenging opportunities and uh and as we do push technological limits um we are in a circumstance where um API understanding of uh the Precision of the cost is just not there so um I I think

0:49:09

that you know if if we wanted to to have less uh testing of the cost or the schedule limits it really says select projects that are uh that are less challenging the problem with that is they're also less rewarding and uh so um

0:49:28

it it's a it's a difficult circumstance and it's one that uh that Nikki and her organization have to uh have to have to really balance um but what you describe is true if they're all increasing in cost they're going to push something

0:49:43

else out that's not going to be able to to fit into the uh into the project into the budget but okay on the other hand um testing where you get the best return for the amount of money that's expended is something that deserves an awful lot

0:50:00

of scientific analysis and systems engineering analysis before projects were implemented thank you Mr Scott in February 2024 NASA's office of Inspector General issued a report on the mar sample return or the MSR Pro program as

0:50:15

we've heard several times today the report noted that characteristics intrinsic to big and complex missions like the MSR program are hard to quantify in estimates but can drive project costs upwards throughout development the report stressed that

0:50:31

NASA must consider these intrinsic characteristics and cannot attribute past cost growth to inflation the covid-19 pandemic or to supply chain issues can you describe these intrinsic characteristics of large missions and

0:50:48

their effects on the cost program thank you Mr chairman on the program cost rather uh thank you Mr chairman yes as we've discussed already in in the statement just a number of factors continue to drive uh the the the cost increases in

0:51:01

in large programs like the mar sample return whether it's the initial Baseline estimates either provided by the dec which are early on and after and often lack the complete picture of what some of these missions will cost uh you know

0:51:14

there's also Workforce issues that can end up driving uh the the the cost increased cost for these missions the the lack of maturity of some of the technology is also a key driver in some of these large complex missions that's

0:51:27

why we think it's important for NASA to start to implement some of the recommendations from the large Mission study to better inform going forward where you put the attention early on in these large projects okay thank you and

0:51:38

it looks like I'm out of time so I'd like to recognize the ranking member Mr senson thank you Mr chairman um I'll begin with Dr lunine um last year I was able to welcome NASA astronaut Dr Kate Rubin to my district and over the course

0:51:54

of two days time we visited numerous schools and it was really great to hear her explain the importance of what we are learning from the Apollo Mission and what we were able to bring back uh from the lunar surface uh could you please

0:52:11

expand on what scientists will be able to learn um with the samples that we hope to get back from the Mars surface sure thank you very much for the question the to answer that question question I will go into my hourong

0:52:28

lecture but since I don't have that time four minutes and 10 seconds yeah I'll I'll give you four points so first of all we do not have a chronology of the early history of Mars that's on an absolute timetable that is we know the

0:52:44

relative times that events happen but not the absolute times and for the Earth and the moon the Apollo samples gave us that for the Earth Moon system that was one of the most profound scientific accomplishments of Apollo to know the

0:52:58

dates that things happened and so we'll learn that for Mars from those samples from what's called radiometric dating and that can be done really needs to be done in terrestrial Laboratories because you have to be able to look at what are

0:53:13

called multiple isotopic systems to do that so leave it at that second we will learn about the uh question of whether organic molecules were present with the water and and what the nature of those organic molecules were you can detect

0:53:29

some organic molecules on Mars itself uh but it's a very faint signature and to be able to detect molecules that are not well preserved requires instruments that can detect abundances that are well below what you can bring to Mars uh

0:53:46

number three uh of course the question of life and whether there are are is fossil evidence of Life the experience of geologists on the earth with very ancient life is that uh it requires laboratory instruments to find the

0:54:01

chemical and physical Clues because those Clues over billions of years have become very very faint and the same for Mars and the third is that because the crater that uh perseverance is in is formed by an impact it excavates

0:54:17

material from deeper under the crust and so to be able to sample that material and bring it back to Earth and determine the minerology of that material is an standing opportunity to know what's underneath the dusty surface of Mars

0:54:30

I'll leave it at that yeah thank you for sharing we could probably talk for a long time I do want to go to uh Dr Fox let's bring this back to to our planet um uh the landset satellite system has provided continuous land imagery of our

0:54:45

our globe for for 50 years uh not just as a meteorologist have I used this data but the University of Illinois has utilized this in agriculture and then also I'd be remissed uh if if um most of us on Capitol Hill aren't a little bit

0:54:59

raspy today because of the fires out in Western Virginia or the fires in the western part of the chairman state of Texas um how will NASA's development of the next generation of landet sat satellites lands set next um be

0:55:14

important uh for districts like ours uh that that's a wonderful question I like Jonathan could give you an hour lecture um but uh I mean lat is a critical part of our I mean our complete Earth Earth monitoring system and as you note uh you

0:55:29

know wildfires do not follow boundaries they don't follow State boundaries we all breathe the same air as we found last year from the Canadian wildfires so a lot of our new missions Lancet clearly uh you know set to to take that next

0:55:42

step next step for lanet next um it's a really a different generation of lanet it also um I would be remiss if I didn't mention our surface biology and geology um mission that will um also just give us this unpre precedented views of what

0:55:58

what you know what we are doing we just launched pace and that is uh not only telling us about ocean Health but also about this the health of the air that we breathe so lanat clearly a very key part but it really is in this this sort of

0:56:11

strength of bringing all of these diverse measurements together to really allow us to to do a great job of characterizing our planet I want to be cognizant of time so really quickly uh Mr Young you stated that there are difficult development paths projects

0:56:26

that result in Great accomplishments travel extremely difficult development paths uh what do you think we in Congress need to do uh to consider when we are looking at these projects ahead a quick summary um I would say

0:56:42

that we need to look at the difficulties that have occurred and and applied Lessons Learned to the next series that that exist and that is I think we know that we've got issues in cost estimating we've got issues in systems engineering

0:56:57

uh we've got issues in in developing the required talent to implement these programs and we need to very clearly specify them and have a coordinated effort to improve significantly in order to be able to do the challenging things

0:57:14

that are in front of us in SMD thank you learn from the past to make good decisions for the future absolutely thank you chairman thank you uh I'd like to recognize the gentleman from Florida Mr posy uh thank you very much chairman

0:57:29

Babin and I want to thank the witness for your Illuminating testimony today uh very very much appreciated uh Mr Scott uh has has the way NASA managed its high-end uh computer capabilities hampered at all in any way that you know

0:57:47

uh its ability to properly monitor the foreign national accreditation access process thank you Mr posy as we recently reported we did raise issues about the 700 plus foreign Nationals that to date have been identified accessing the

0:58:01

highend Computing capabilities again the the issues that that came to light were one of the ability to better understand the number of highend computing highend Computing uh systems NASA has running is diffused spread out across the various

0:58:14

centers and being able to better understand and track and monitor who's actually on the system and ensuring that these diffuse systems have the adequate uh cyber security controls thank you uh do do you think the use of NASA's

0:58:27

high-end Computing by external and and and foreign National parties U is a persuasive as the inspector General's report might have uh indicated again we've asked NASA to set up a tiger team to look and better understand uh the number of external

0:58:43

users and foreign Nationals accessing the system right it's a both and right it's important for scientific reasons that folks have access to to the highend Computing and it's Inc equally important that we understand who these folks are

0:58:56

what they're accessing and being able to track and monitor their use of the systems thank you of the more than 700 foreign Nationals uh the IG report says have accessed the system are you aware of any uh from any country of concern

0:59:09

such as China or cities of maau or Hong Kong I'm not aware of any uh foreign Nation from any uh countries of concern NASA does have a foreign national accreditation process and so my understanding is the folks on the system

0:59:22

have gone through that process what we're asking NASA to do is ensuring to better ensure that the folks responsible for the highing Computing capabilities are part of the accreditation process and again making sure these systems are

0:59:34

up to date in terms of their cyber security controls and we're able to monitor the activity of those on the system that's great uh has NASA expeditiously implemented the recommendations in the inspector General's report uh we're we're awaiting their

0:59:50

responses we believe that their initial responses uh will address the recommendations we made but again we're waiting to see exactly when they're they're implemented the various recommendations okay um Dr Fox is is NASA working to uh fully implement the

1:00:06

inspector General's recommendations concerning a highing computer capabilities to restrict access uh by external and foreign National parties uh NASA really appreciates uh the receipt of the um the report from the inspector

1:00:18

General's office extremely helpful report uh we are in the process of implement of uh of responding um to each of the of the recommendations and putting together uh the team uh as requested to actually do this deep dive study

1:00:35

okay um Mr chairman I ask unanimous consent to include in the record of March uh 2024 NASA's office of Inspector General report without objection so order now thank you Mr chairman I yell back yes sir thank you now I'd like to

1:00:51

recognize the gentoman from Virginia Miss mclen thank you Mr chairman um as the only member of the committee from Virginia I'm particularly proud of the work being done at uh Langley Research Center uh which I've had the opportunity

1:01:07

to visit um their work to advance uh science not only in the Commonwealth but around the country um and I have to say that um as a mother to a son who wants to be an astronomer uh he is a keen fan of the work that you all do in the

1:01:24

planetary science and healing IO science divisions he has used images from the uh hubber Hubble and James web Space Telescope for school presentations and as a junior volunteer at the science M Museum of Virginia and um those images

1:01:42

have sparked an interest in stem more than any anything that his father and I have ever put in front of him um and I am I am very hopeful that he will one day uh be one of those scientists that Dr lunine talked about who will be

1:01:59

studying uh samples brought back from Mars and um thank you very much for the glasses because he told me the other day that uh we needed special glasses he's very much looking forward to the eclipse so you have you have definitely gotten

1:02:14

me some cool points today um we know that funding stability is essential to maintaining a highly skilled Workforce um which enables our continued National leadership in research Innovation and exploration and Dr Fox and Mr Scott uh

1:02:32

could you uh tell us if the president's fiscal year 25 budget requests sufficiently funds the science mission directorate to prevent future Workforce reductions or some of the challenges you've discussed today uh thank you very much I'll be

1:02:48

happy to yield an extra pair of glasses for your son make sure that conected to um we're very grateful for uh the the president's budget request the FY 25 president's budget request that does fund Nessa at 7565 uh billion dollar for science uh

1:03:05

that is below um the the enacted 23 so it it does it does provide challenges um in the portfolio uh the bulk of those challenges are in the planetary science uh division as you noted um and uh we are working very closely uh with our

1:03:22

centers um with our teams uh to to try and limit the impact um of those of those reductions um and can you tell me what strategies NASA is implementing to prevent attrition and ensure the stability of your Workforce uh again we're working

1:03:43

extremely closely with the centers to understand uh any impacts of the of the various challenges um obviously with M sample return uh with the following the the recommendations from the IRB we did do we have paused uh the development of

1:03:58

some of the um aspects of M sampa return while we look at um all of the architecture the different architecture studies um and so as as I know everybody is aware that did cause some uh Workforce losses at the jet propulsion

1:04:12

lab uh which of course our hearts go out to anyone who has to do that um but that was that was done as a as a result of U of budget limitations um there but we are working extremely closely with all of our centers and of course with JP uh

1:04:26

to try and minimize and and more importantly to actually sustain the critical Workforce that we need to be able to do these amazingly daring missions that we want to succeed with and uh could you discuss any potential impacts to the science Mission

1:04:41

directorate projects at Langley specifically uh if NASA's Topline fun e either remains flat or these Cuts take place uh I I I don't have a full so we let me start again so for uh for Langley the biggest impact will be in the earth

1:04:58

science um division uh because of some of the the the delays and the the change in the way that we will be implementing some of the earth science missions um so there will be some impact to Langley there they also do have um critical work

1:05:12

with us in M sample return um and uh uh but they do also have work with dragonfly which is well funded and so we're hoping to be able to balance between some of the missions that have that are more robustly supported and

1:05:26

some that may be a little skinny down um in the fy2 okay and in the my remaining time you may not be able to answer this here so I'll submit this for the record but uh your bridge program that uh develops Partnerships between your centers and

1:05:40

and uh institutions that are historically under resource like minority serving institutions community colleges and tribal colleges um I wonder if you could for the record provide an update on the status of the bridge

1:05:53

program and some of its outcome uh we we would be very happy to provide that for the record I know the time's done but I will say we are really really excited about our bridge program uh for all the reasons that you it's it's always nice

1:06:04

to be able to offer people opportunities but to be able to actually support them to be able to take advantage of those opportunities is what we're doing with our bridge program so thank you for the question thank you Mr chairman now

1:06:13

you're back yes ma'am thank you very much I'd like to recognize the gentleman from California Mr Garcia thank you Mr chairman uh thank you all for being here to all the witnesses of your contributions to the country and to

1:06:24

science and to our nation security uh you won't find a bigger fan on the hill uh of NASA and the private part part uh private Public Partnerships that that we're enjoying this is a true space Renaissance uh and I should say that

1:06:36

with all difference Mr chairman you probably are just as big a fan of NASA and the private part partnership as I uh and so you know this is this is not coming from a place uh of being combative but trying to be cooperative

1:06:52

in the spirit of being successful for these missions especially uh the science and National Security implications that a lot of these missions carry with them and and while I appreciate the uh the eclipse sunglasses uh I would have pre preferred

1:07:06

a set of glasses that would have prevented me from being blindsided by the actions that the Administration has taken over the last few months when it comes to uh the Mars sample uh recovery program uh Mr Young said that the fate

1:07:18

of MSR is in the hands of NASA as well as Congress and I disagree with that it it certainly doesn't feel that way I think we have a better relationship uh than than what I think you assumed um and and you left us in the dark frankly with some reprogramming

1:07:35

uh that took place under loopholes during the CR um as as the authorizer on this committee and as the appropriator on CJs uh I would have uh really appreciated a heads up that we were going to lay off close to 600 employees at JPL uh before

1:07:52

that decision was made I was aware before it was executed but not before that decision was made and we have caused irreparable damage in those decisions and I understand that the Senate Mark was at 300 million and ours

1:08:03

was at 975 and we were in the midst of a CR and there's a lot of uncertainty and ambiguity there and as a as a former you know program uh director myself uh of hundred million programs I understand that that uncertainty uh is not good um

1:08:20

but we could have cooperated we could have communicated and we could have landed on a place where maybe we should have preserved those jobs and what's happening now is those folks that were at JPL aren't just leaving JPL they're

1:08:31

leaving the industry uh in many cases they're leaving the state and we're losing a cumulative of anywhere between 3,000 years and 5,000 years of corporate knowledge of engineering and design and early development design work engine uh

1:08:44

expertise that ain't coming back um and so I don't know uh how we're going to address the workforce issues it was a premature uh decision it was prior to the IRB Response Team recommendations that we're expecting here in the spring

1:08:58

and I understand you can drive a truck between the 300 million and the 975 million or so that the house Mark to uh and that's uncertainty and I definitely have received your message uh that CRS are bad U but I think you exploited that

1:09:12

I think you exploited loopholes in CR language to fund a a level that is well below Congressional intent and certainly well below uh executability level so I've submitted a letter uh to the administration uh to administrator

1:09:27

Nelson with 20 colleagues uh by the way I'm the only Republican on this letter so this is a bipartisan thing uh from California uh requesting that you fund MSR at 650 for the remaining uh part of fy2 24 I understand that's going to

1:09:42

require some reprogramming and different profiles on your cost expenditures uh we'd like to see a response to that uh but I think um um we are also asking to not uh have any other reductions in forces riffs or layoffs as a result of

1:09:57

the decisions already made so that we can try to salvage what Workforce Talent we have uh there as well so I guess Dr Fox my question is will you comply with the the direction in the FY 24 spending bill which hopefully uh will be executed

1:10:12

here shortly to not further reduce staff on the Mars sample return program uh so uh thank you for the question and actually really thank you for your unwavering support of the mampo return I really genuinely mean that and

1:10:26

really do appreciate your support on that um yeah we did uh a brief Congress a number of times the Appropriations um on the plans for M sample return I think I actually had the pleasure of speaking to you myself that and uh you know with

1:10:41

with the uncertainty um if we had allowed uh the the spending on Mara return to to continue at or to to continue at the uh the 2023 level we would have breached um the anti- uh anti deficiency anti-deficiency thank you anti-deficiency act um before

1:11:02

February um and of course we did not want to in in any way do that uh so we took the the measures to uh to limit and to actually follow the the um the recommendations of the independent review board I'm running out of time but

1:11:15

I'm want to ask the question looking forward uh looking forward for the rest of the fiscal year uh are are you committed to not reducing additional staff and we commit to allocating sufficient funding in FY 24 and 25 to

1:11:28

ensure the timely retrieval of samples of Mars and I want to be very clear I support you I support NASA in this program but it's not unwavering if we can continue to show premature and in my opinion Reckless Behavior patterns out of

1:11:40

reprogramming I will want to do deeper dives into the program and and uh and and ask even more questions but if you can answer the questions for the record you commit to retaining the current staff levels as they are for the rest of

1:11:53

the year moving forward and in fy2 continuing to uh follow our our Congressional intent with funding levels to execute the program sufficiently so we look forward to the results of the independent review team that will be coming out in the spring um and we

1:12:08

certainly commit to work closely with GPL uh to to continue to maintain the critical Workforce that will be necessary to do these missions okay thank you I'm out of Tomy yield back thank you Mr Garcia um good questions uh I'd like to call on uh Mr

1:12:26

strong my friend from Alabama thank you chairman Babin uh ranking member senson and our Witnesses uh for their testimony today I understand two proposals from Marshall space flight center were not selected in a recent uh science Mission

1:12:39

directorate call these proposals were for Concepts uh called moon beam and leap moon beam was the highest rated astrophysics proposal and the only proposal to receive a category one rating the highest rating possible Dr Dr

1:12:55

Fox uh Mr Scott what is holding NASA back from making these competitive Awards uh thank you for the question um there are uh many factors that go into why emission why things are are selected and not selected and and in for this

1:13:12

particular one we did not have the resources available to be able to support a mission of opportunity okay uh the Mars Ascent vehicle also just successfully uh finished its performance development uh review and successfully completed wind

1:13:26

tunnel testing at Marshall space flight center the Mars Ascent vehicle a crucial element of Mars sample return program uh is a top priority within the U decle I think that's the program they call it the survey uh Dr Fox Mr Scott what is

1:13:44

NASA doing to meet its commitment uh to the survey's priorities yes as you as you note it was the highest priority not only of the current decal but of the previous DEC uh to bring our samples back from Mars as as Jonathan also um talked about uh we

1:14:00

are in at the moment we are reassessing be we had that independent review board that released their findings last October uh we are we have an independent team at Nasa that is going through each of those findings um and so while we're

1:14:13

looking at at the restructuring that was recommended by that independent review board um we we do have some elements of U Mal Sala return paused um because we are being good student of taxpayer money and we don't want to go forward and uh

1:14:28

spend money that would then not be realized uh so that that is that is the plan but stay tuned uh in Spring we will roll out uh the results of of that of of the or the findings of that team and uh uh hopefully get M sample return back on

1:14:43

a path to be able to bring those extremely precious samples back from the red we're we're anxiously awaiting uh Marshall space flight center also hosted the ISS payload Mission Control Center which manages many uh research payloads

1:14:57

aboard the aboard the ISS uh Dr Fox how does NASA's uh plan to ensure that researchers can seamlessly transition their experiments from the ISS to the commercial Leo uh destinations as they become available uh that's a great

1:15:12

question I could talk for hours about the great stuff that we do on ISS trust me um but we have we are investing we're working uh with partner agencies with NIH with the FDA with the human research program of course and with v um our our

1:15:26

biological and physical sciences Division I think they have about an $18 million uh investment right now in things like tissue chips um so growing organs and and uh sending up mean you could actually envisage sending up a

1:15:38

Mini U on a chip and then looking at how how you respond to different medications and so uh being basically being planning to do this um sort of Rapid development and working hand inand with our commercial uh Partners to look at

1:15:53

exactly what it would take to transition um from this critical science that we do on the ISS and get it ready to to uh enact on whichever of the commercial Leo destinations uh that that we go with obviously they when they go up when they

1:16:07

put these in space they want to use them and so biological and physical sciences is a is a great customer and uh we are ready to to do amazing things whether it's growing plants uh looking at yeast and seeds and how they adapt also I'll

1:16:21

just note you know already taking advantage of emus with flying on almus 1 flying a biological physical payload there and getting ready to roll out the science that we're going to do on almus 2 as well so uh just excited about the

1:16:34

whole thing man tell you I can tell the excitement in your voice voice and I thank each of you for being here today in the role that you play Mr chairman I yield back sir thank you Mr strong and I'd like to call now on uh our full

1:16:47

committee chair Mr Lucas thank you Mr chairman and to Mr Young when I joined this committee more than 20 years ago the James web telescope was in the early stages of formulation and over that period this committee engaged an

1:17:03

extensive oversight of the development of the program you led the independent review board that assessed the status of the telescope and testified this to this committee about the results from your Vantage Point is NASA integrating

1:17:16

Lessons Learned From the development challenges of James web and it was a challenge and there were challenges that's no question um in fact you brought back a lot of interesting memories oh absolutely um I would say the answer is

1:17:34

yes um you know NASA has put together and somebody can remind me the name of it but a group of people that really went went about and talked to a lot of people I was one that uh spent some time with the group and and trying to put

1:17:50

together Lessons Learned and so yeah I think there is an effort you know to uh to do that I think the other thing though if I could hitch like on your question that I I need to really emphasize and you would appreciate this

1:18:06

these missions these Flagship missions that we're talking about that are pushing the boundaries of capability they are never going to be easy and they're never going to be free of challenges and and and difficulties and

1:18:21

and I think that we've you know the the the results of James web in my view maybe doesn't justify all of the issues that you had an opportunity to have a front row seat to to but they really did show that the perseverance of of trying

1:18:42

to get all of the issues under control particularly those that were technical issues many of which we found in the RB that uh that I chaired U came together and and um really have a system that got um that launched that had 300 and some single

1:19:01

point failures any one of which would have been Mission catastrophic and for all of them to have worked is a is a is a credit to NASA and the engineering capability of the project so I'm bouncing around your it them I'd say

1:19:15

yeah we are learning from it but I do want to point out that these missions are never going to be easy and free of some of the challenges that exist we should just get as many of them out of the way as we can in the process and I will remember Mr Young

1:19:34

that point in one of the hearings the discussion that the complexity of the instrument the complications of the launch and the fact that we would put it out where we could never go put a pair of sunglasses on it perhaps the way we done Hubble was very

1:19:52

unnerving uh Mr Scott your testimony highlights that an issue for many NASA missions is the culture of optimism that results in unrealistic cost and schedule assumptions our committee encourages NASA to pursue bold emissions but how

1:20:07

can we encourage NASA to establish a more realistic cost and schedule projections for the agency's uh science missions thank you chairman Lucas u a can do spirit is helpful and necessary for the things NASA does that's without

1:20:21

question uh what we're asking the agency to do to do though is continuing to make critical assessments particular of these large Flagship missions in terms of cost schedule and requirements and that means asking the hard questions about these

1:20:35

missions even if the answers aren't favorable to your project it's important to to balance the sense of optimism and can do spirit with realism particularly as it relates to the the lack of maturity in some of these Technologies

1:20:48

the scientific uh balancing that with the the scientific value of these missions but really being able to to more fully understand the challenges ahead and and try to better balance these cost and schedule issues the other

1:21:01

issue is the dec uh I'm s of somewhat sympathetic to NASA the dec survey puts out estimates some of these projects but those are early estimates those are those are immature estimates and yet those become the yard STI by which

1:21:14

eventually we start to judge NASA so I think it's also making sure we better understand what those decal estimates mean and then holding the agency more accountable as it fully matures and develops these additional estimates Dr lenine and Mr Young uh this

1:21:29

committee is working on a NASA authorization Bill and our bill sets NASA policy but does not provide funding for the agency recognizing the fiscal environment in which we are operating how do we set policy for NASA's science

1:21:43

Mission directorate without creating unrealistic expectations for the agency which will be difficult to find how do we temper our optimism so they can be practical well I'm a scientist and not a policy person Mr chairman you're a lucky

1:22:01

person yes thank you I I I know that recognize that every day I you know I would just say that this isn't really answering your question but I I feel that the nation's portfolio of space science projects represents uh something

1:22:19

that you looking back in to this time in the future will be seen as one of the remark remarkable accomplishments of this nation in terms of what we've done in exploring the universe and exploring our own Earth the planets the Sun and

1:22:33

you know being mindful of that those decisions are very difficult to make and I you know I recognize that and I hope that uh those can be made with as much uh knowledge uh and perspective as possible if if I could add to to that I

1:22:50

think one of the things that has to be recognized with the task that you have is that um that there's a collection of activities that that NASA does in the science Arena uh that are probably better understood than something like

1:23:06

James web Space Telescope is so I I think it's important to have a foundation of programs that um Advance the scientific understanding but that are not um challenging the the limits of possibility but only the other hand I

1:23:26

think if we look back a decade or two decades from now and we uh we have not been bold in including within the Baseline of programs I'm talking about programs like James web like Mars sample return I think we will collectively be

1:23:47

disappointed that we did not pursue the opportunities that were there and I think again what I was saying is pursuing those opportunities is really going to what's going to make the uh the road difficult I I recall going back to

1:24:02

James web if I could spend just a minute um and I spent a lot of time up here interacting with when when it was kind of also in the balance but fundamentally uh the a question I got asked regularly was was James web a step too

1:24:18

far and after I thought about it bear with me as I answer I think the answer is yes but if we had not taken a step too far we would not have the incredible results that we have today now you can't do that with everything but there are special

1:24:35

things like Hubble like James web and I happen to agree with Jonathan and like Mar sample return that taking a step a little bit too far is in the best interest of justifying uh the potential results we come back because it's a flagship

1:24:54

missions that are going to kind of provide um the James we kindor results and I don't want to minimize the other but everything can't be done that way but a program that's absence of those kinds of programs would not be an would

1:25:08

not be a program that we will be proud of well put Mr Young and thank you Mr chairman for indulging me heel back yes sir good questions thank you Mr chairman uh I'd like to call on uh Mr McCormick from Georgia five minutes thank you Dr chair

1:25:26

appreciate you and appreciate the witnesses being here exciting topic uh I will say as a Naval aviator ER Doc and uh soon to be payload specialist um I'm very interested in this topic uh especially with n NASA and it's uh future

1:25:42

activities uh I'm worried about some of the things that we need to do to sustain a budget for NASA as we go forward and and to be applicable but also accountable simultaneously um I would be remiss if I did mention that the science Mission

1:25:56

directorate seems to be plagued by the same issues as many of NASA's other departments which constant deadline extensions uh flawed cost estimating processes and poor financial management at times I hope that today's conversation lead us to identify key

1:26:12

issues and find ways to mitigate these resource constraints I'm excited about NASA's successful test of the double asteroid redirection test which is Dart for most of us others um that program demonstrates the method for deconflict

1:26:27

asteroid through kinetic impact and the implication it could have as a key to our goal for planetary defense which I think is kind of cool we've seen movies on this I think Bru Bruce Willis had a great depiction of uh or maybe it was a

1:26:39

documentary I'm not sure um how we mitigate that risk in the future because it is a real concern I mean we don't know when it's going to be but we might as well have that capability in the future Dr Fox now that we have successfully demonstrated the DART

1:26:52

program what's the next for for this program and will we create U multiple darts on standby for possible near Earth objects uh what what a fabulous question um so uh the the next thing in the planetary defense uh is the Neo surveyor

1:27:08

which of course will um be critical in characterizing and and cataloging anything that could need us to have a sort of Dart part two if you like um we don't have plans at the moment to have Dart in sort of little darts in storage

1:27:24

um we don't have the the resources in the plan in the planetary defense um we are we are however sort of I think probably recycling maybe is the good way sustaining um but we are reusing the Osiris RX spacecraft so after that uh

1:27:40

gave us those precious samples from benu uh it dropped the capsule and then um did a did a nice maneuver um and eventually we'll actually rendevu with Aus uh which is a small asteroid that will come fairly close to to the planet

1:27:55

not too close but fairly close uh and so we're using that to go and study close up another asteroid of course we have our Lucy Mission doing flybys of all the Trojan asteroids we have Psyche on the way to a a heavy metal asteroid um

1:28:10

giving us all different views and I I just want to um paraphrase something that deputy melroy said the other day which was you know when she was studying um uh in her planetary day she was studying asteroids we had no idea what

1:28:22

they looked like you know and now we've had these incredible close-up views so we're doing such a great job I think of categorizing understanding and cataloging um asteroids that could become problematic um so a very very vibrant um field for us uh having

1:28:37

survived asteroid Autumn last year it sounds like you've done your homework and it has sounds like you have a lot of organizations sound suspiciously like a uh heavy metal band but uh with that said how much do we spend in time

1:28:50

coordinating with other nations in this efforts uh and sh information and and our like-mindedness to survive something like that yeah um I'm going to actually take that one for the record because I want to get you an accurate um response

1:29:02

with the actual organizations because I don't remember them now but uh we work closely with Worldwide um I mean there are there are these sort of asteroid watch networks um and and again we will get you all that information okay yeah

1:29:14

more more to the point I think we're all watching space the question is how much are we coordinating our efforts to defend against something that could be catastrophic and then how do we um how do we protect our own Technologies well

1:29:26

at the same time being able to share the information we need in order to protect ourselves that's the next step I think in the evolution of what we're trying to achieve here with dart or whatever the next program is going to be that's just

1:29:36

something I wanted to point out yeah um Mr Scott I'm almost out of time I got about one minute what the most concerning issu that you have written a report that has not been addressed by NASA uh thank you for that question uh I

1:29:52

think it's not one issue uh annually we issue a top management challenges for the agency which really points to the longstanding challenges whether it's getting humans back to the Moon addressing the cybercity issues so from

1:30:03

while while NASA is making progress addressing each of those key challenges you I would point you to our top management challenges reports which really summarizes at a high level we believe the top uh issues and challenges

1:30:14

NASA is facing across its programs and Missions Number One what is it they're all my favorite I think there's like seven or eight of them so I don't have a number one you treating them like kids huh you don't want to have a favorite I

1:30:25

get it okay well I'd say in order for us to be accountable to people just make sure that we're spending wisely we budget proc and that that budget process has to be streamlined a little bit better thank you Mr chair absolutely

1:30:36

thank you and uh I think everybody's asked questions and uh so we're going to go back through with a second series if that's okay with everyone and I'm going to call on the ranking member Mr senson first thank you Mr chairman

1:30:50

and thank you uh again to our Witnesses um you know as as Congress is tasked here in the we hours of of the morning of a spending package uh that we'll be voting on very hope hopefully very very shortly um all eyes are on spending um

1:31:07

and so I do want to go back to um something that Mr Young that you said in your testimony um NASA should look at the most probable cost instead of the lowest credible cost and so um I do want to open this up to a more broader discussion uh because in

1:31:28

2020 uh NASA's preliminary estimate uh would cost2 to three billion dollar to bring the samples uh being collected by the perseverance Rover on Mars back to Earth 2 to three billion was the estimate uh last summer uh just three

1:31:44

years later the independent review board said that a more realistic estimate is 8 to 11 billion and that's still preliminary um how can we as as members of the space science and technology committee or more broadly members of Congress continue to

1:32:03

justify that this is worth it in the long run I think as as the the chairman and I are are scientists at heart we understand uh the value of of being bold Mr young as you had said how do we continue to do that if the cost overruns keep going up

1:32:25

I noticed there are no other [Laughter] volunteers um I'm trying to figure out how to do this within reasonable time when when projects are being put together and being going through various approval processes within NASA within the Congress within the

1:32:46

OM um the thing that is whether we like it or not the thing that is encouraged is lowest credible cost um as Mr Scott said in that era everybody is an optimist and um and the difference between lowest cred there's a lot of data that would support this

1:33:08

between a lowest credible cost on a statistical basis I would say is like a 2080 um a most probable cost is like an 8020 the those numbers are are at least a factor of two differ so what I'm really getting around to is that there's got to be some

1:33:30

offsetting um role that everybody can't be in the camp Camp of lowest credible cost because we're going to end up with ridiculous numbers as it turned out like3 billion dollar um now in a corporation where you're kind of betting

1:33:49

the corporation what do you do okay if I go back to my previous what we did was we had project people who developed cost and they were Optimist and we knew they were Optimist and we wanted to be Optimist in the to lead the kind of

1:34:05

projects we were talking about but we did not want to bet the company on their numbers so we had independent cost estimating capability people whose job it was to develop the most probable estimate so my argument would be in the front end of projects

1:34:24

we we need to recognize that many of the numbers we're getting are lowest credible cost and we need to have an independent capability to work on the objective of being I'll call it junkyard dogs you know people who are really looking at

1:34:44

what this is really going to cost and then the decision makers have got to recognize that these programs are difficult and you know and and it's going to take most probable cost so then we can make judgments against the more

1:35:03

more validity the cost so I believe we have capabilities to estimate cost I think much of the of the sample return problem is not overruns in performance it's overruns in estimating and uh that we had uh you know that's why I used the

1:35:23

terms lowest credible versus most probable and I look back at what the what we were doing with respect to space and what it meant for us to get a computer in our hands that is this size and this weight what is the value of the

1:35:38

investment that we made back then and it we can't calculate what that is here today um and that's what I worry here in Congress as we're struggling to to meet the needs of what it means to be bold in space and so I hope that we are able to

1:35:53

do the right thing thing and uh and fund the right parts thank you Mr chairman yes sir thank you um I just had a couple of follow-up questions um uh for Mr Young uh you chaired the independent review board for NASA psyche Mission

1:36:10

similarly to the oig's report the review board report noted that delays attributed to covid-19 may actually be rooted in deeper program issues I'd like to provide you with an opportunity to uh discuss the characteristics of large

1:36:27

missions that contribute uh to delays and cost increases if you don't mind psyche is interesting example and it was done during the covid time period so there's no question but what covid had an adverse impact on psychi and and

1:36:49

and projects because um project management is a team sport and and what I mean by that it is people really need to be face to face uh and to to work it out but it would be wrong to blame uh even a majority of psyche's

1:37:10

problems on on covid it was certainly a factor uh but but psyche clearly had uh some started as some software development problems in the guidance and control of software that were poorly communicated throughout the organization

1:37:26

were not recognized until it was too late to have corrective action that would have allowed the uh uh the pro project to go um on on schedule um the other thing I would say with that is to Jill's credit when we interacted with them uh from the from

1:37:46

the um IRB standpoint we really push hard on this issue of hybrid work VV in person work and they put together um a a concept that recognized employees um maybe cultural differences but necessary to make the make the project work I guess the other thing I

1:38:11

would say was that um the IRB really stayed with J hand in hand all the way through the process and they developed a path forward uh that when we first reviewed it we said you need to go back and there's some other things you need

1:38:28

to do and they did and uh I mean JPL and NASA's response to that they accepted every recommendation we had uh they responded to to them and Nikki probably remembers but she came out to get a preliminary uh assessment of what we

1:38:45

were doing and uh my comment was at that time which is true that we had high expectations for what they were going to do and they exceeded them um and so I think that really is a in my view that is a textbook way that when you have a

1:39:02

problem like that um you know that you go about solving solving it and and and what NASA and JPL did and responding to our recommendations was uh we applauded uh quite significantly and it's always rewarding back to James web where I

1:39:19

shared the IRB there and I don't want to make this sound like taking credit but it's always pretty nice and you can then sit back and watch like psyche it then launched on the revised schedule and it's on the way to the to the uh

1:39:33

asteroid uh psyche and is performing extraordinarily well okay thank you and then also to follow up the space mission directorate periodically conducts reviews of its operating missions known as senior reviews the reviews provide a

1:39:50

valuable opportunity for NASA to leverage it Investments by extending the operations of spacecraft that continue to provide useful data beyond their planned Lifetime and while a useful tool I'm interested in ensuring that NASA

1:40:04

allocates its funding in the most efficient manner possible uh in particular recent senior reviews across smds divisions have recommended extending the majority of programs being considered uh does the senior review process assess how continued operations

1:40:20

of a mission would impact NASA's budget and how does NASA weigh whether extension of an existing mission is worth potentially diverting funds from a future Mission Mr Young yeah I'm not I'm not the person really to to comment on the then I bet

1:40:41

it's Dr Fox yeah happy to talk about that um so I we really value the senior review process because if we do have to make tough decisions it does give us that ranking um of course nobody ever wants their mission turned off why would

1:40:53

you I wouldn't want mine turned off um so uh but it is challenging um because we as when we talk about the balanced portfolio across the science Mission director we really do mean in terms of our Legacy missions with the new

1:41:05

exciting missions um I will I do want to sort of highlight um how the earth science division has recently uh uh used their senior review um you know they they they got a recommendation to maintain all of their uh their their

1:41:19

operating missions um they did not have the resources to do it so what they actually did was gave a very challenging budget scenario to each of those operating missions and boy did they deliver um so they they have they are

1:41:31

cutting those um the actual budget to you know Finding creative efficient ways to keep operating the missions maybe you can't do it in the way you've always done it before in Prime mission but there are efficiencies you can make to

1:41:43

extend the missions and we've seen that across the portfolio um where you know uh so so we find that the senior review process very very valuable um um we do like it when they give us the ranking of the missions because it does make it

1:41:56

easier when we have to make those hard decisions okay thank you very much and I'm out of time i' like to call on a gentleman from California once again thank you Mr chairman I want to follow up on the the the Mars sample recovery

1:42:09

uh discussion that we have I'm a dog with a bone on this one because it's so important to us and the Damage here uh is tremendous uh not not to just my district but to all of Southern California to all of frankly the the the

1:42:23

NASA Workforce industrial base and the implications of this bad behavior are are far-reaching this was premature predecisional uh based on predecisional conversations in Congress that were happening real time between both the house and the Senate uh very

1:42:40

shortsighted uh and has caused irreparable damage I I describe this as nothing short of a bag job against the good Folks at JPL people who are now unemployed looking for other Industries looking for other jobs jobs almost 600

1:42:54

folks as a result of this bad decision it's a slap in the face to Congress both the authorizers and the appropriators so you mentioned Dr Fox the anti-deficiency ACT um the anti-deficiency ACT is meant to be uh a way to ensure that agencies

1:43:10

aren't spending more than what they are appropriated to um your FY 23 Appropriations number was 8818 million 88.8 I believe to be exact million ion okay you made the decision for the layoffs in February 6th which was about

1:43:27

roughly 35% through the fiscal year uh so 35% of 8818 is about $286 million so you were either uh this program and I don't want to say you this program was either burning hot at a rate of 3x and you were therefore looking at

1:43:47

an anti-deficiency act uh breach or the remaining money the Delta between 818 which is what you were last appropriated and 286 which would have been your sort of spi for a 35% profile through the F FY 23 um was reprogrammed to another

1:44:08

program so this argument that you made these decisions based on an anti-deficiency act actually is is technically and legally not true unless you were burning at a 3X rate or you did reprogram money to another program from

1:44:25

MSR to something else that we weren't notified for and I would I would in I would actually submit that the appearance of what has been done here is not an anti deficiency act violation or or uh an attempt to prevent an

1:44:42

anti-deficiency act violation but looks more like an impound act violation to me which is where you don't uh execute the money that has been allocated to you with a specific purpose uh through uh Congressional Appropriations process

1:45:00

so um I don't want a difference to you I don't want you to answer that question here right now um but I would like a deeper dive into why you are asserting and your staff is asserting that the rationale for these layoffs was an

1:45:15

anti-deficiency act because if frankly technically legally numerically programmatically uh cannot hold water unless you were burning at 3x which I don't think you were I understand you're in the midst of an IRB there was

1:45:30

confusion about the Technical Solutions moving forward I understand there was confusion about the timelines and schedules that would be derived from those Technical Solutions and I also understand Congress was doing you a disservice with a CR but to

1:45:43

Baseline against a $300 million number that came out of the Senate markups is not what you anchor to when you start talking about anti deficiency act conversations okay you anchor to your previously appropriated number which was

1:45:59

818 so uh happy to let you comment on that right now if you want to um if you would prefer to answer for the record later with the actual numbers and and your SPI and your actual burn rates and and show us where money was be being

1:46:16

reallocated before February 6th to substantiate the layoffs you can also do that but uh I'll defer to you I want to make sure a lot of these jobs are already lost a lot of these people are already gone so I don't know how we do

1:46:29

MSR correctly without that Workforce we're already challenged and there's already you know uh uh an unprecedent level of competition right now between primes to go hire these people and they're getting scooped up but uh I'll

1:46:42

defer to you Miss Dr Fox if you want to respond um I'm happy to take it for the record so we can get you all I mean you you asking some for some very deep numbers that of course I don't have um at the tip my tongue so we're happy to

1:46:54

take it for the record um obviously again we are uh you know we do not direct JPL um on their Workforce uh we did provide them Financial guidance that was based on um uh what we thought was going to be available um and uh having

1:47:09

having been given the information or or you know with the fiscal responsibility act coming out at the at the 20 no higher than the 20 23 um and and and a cut below that um I will just note that the cut to planetary um is is nearly

1:47:23

half a billion dollarss um against the uh 23 enacted um and it is 666 million against that the president's budget request for 24 so it's it it is a very big cut to planetary yes but from an anti-deficiency act and amount of time

1:47:39

that is not what you should have been anchoring to uh we we were allowed and we were able to continue to fight for the higher dollar levels and so we can continue this conversation but uh I just uh I'm I'm scared I'm scared worried

1:47:51

about the workforce um and and uh it's not my district uh it's it's Southern California and we'll be looking for responses to the letters from the delegates uh from the area thank you I he back thank you Mr Garcia appreciate

1:48:04

it well this uh this concludes our our hearing this today but I want to thank each one of you Witnesses for being here and your valuable testimony uh for us to be able to have proper oversight and know what's going on with our our

1:48:18

programs the record will remain open for 10 days for additional comments uh and also for written questions from Members this hearing is now adjourned

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