0:00:06

on hearing versus round table and there's a HK hearing right downstairs so we'll probably have people coming in coming out but this is such an important topic we have a great panel I'd like to go all the way back to uh 1959 when the

0:00:17

Soviet Union shocked the World by putting uh sput Sputnik satellite into orbit uh but rather than becoming discouraged the country was galvanized into action and 55 years ago led by the Brave and Brilliant men and women of

0:00:28

NASA uh they succeeded in getting to the Moon first and their success demoralized the Soviets such that they never reached the moon at all and the superiority of the American system demonstrated by the space race and our determination in the

0:00:40

face of an adversary took the luster off Soviet communism and may well have contributed to the collapse of the Soviet Union decades later um I think we need that same Spirit today uh I was thinking a bit about uh President Reagan

0:00:51

in 84 describing space as a new frontier and said that our willingness to accept the challenge of space exploration will reflect whether America's men and women today have the same bold Vision the same courage and indomitable spirit that made

0:01:04

us a great nation uh Reagan certainly understood the potential of space as a new frontier of scientific economic and even military exploration he realized that if America opted out of exploring this new frontier as he termed it it

0:01:15

would not remain untouched and pristine but fall prey to nefarious actors who did not share our values we face that similar dilemma today uh from solar panels to electric vehicles to the internet itself imprisoned behind a

0:01:28

great firewall the entire world has witnessed wied how the Chinese Communist party will corrupt and weaponize any technology in any field they gain a monopoly over whether we wish to partake or not there is a new space race one the

0:01:40

Chinese Communist party is determined to win and we simply cannot let them so today's event is designed to discuss space as an area of compet competition between the United States and the PRC that really transcends the military

0:01:54

civil and Commercial domains so we'll also look at broader supply chain and Technology trans for concerns around space technology especially surrounding dual use technology uh again we have incredible experts here today uh we have

0:02:07

former colleagues um I'm trying to become a former colleague of we'll see if I'm able to escape U but uh that's right there is yeah the that's right uh and Raja was making fun of me for my obsession with yesterday so we won't go

0:02:21

into that uh today but our mission here today is not about retiga the past but finding right policies for the future we want to find the best ways to maintain us Primacy and space technology for generations to come and so I have no

0:02:35

doubt that we can Prevail but we just need to muster The Willpower to do it and with that I'd like to recognize the ranking member well thank you Mr chair and given that you don't have any elections coming up I was really hoping

0:02:45

that you would do the Vulcan greeting to start the uh meeting uh and really create some Oppo uh on you but yeah um but in all seriousness it's great to see all of you and Jim our for former colleague is back so thank you so much

0:02:59

for coming in as well as well and thank you to our distinguished guests look I think that all of you know that you know space has kind of um kind of energized the imagination it's kind of been an inspiring uh Journey for the nation um

0:03:13

and we you know since we landed the moon landed on the moon in 1969 to uh who can forget the first robot Rover on Mars and the wonder that we with which we observe that uh and then of course what we've seen from NASA's Hubble Telescope has

0:03:33

just been mindboggling um and I think that at at our best um exploring space has um kind of uh rekindled our imaginations uh unified our country and really unified Humanity if you think about it now the CCP also understands the importance of space and uh

0:03:57

unfortunately some of the statements that they've made about space have been a little bit concerning uh they said it's the ultimate High ground and similar to wanting to control territory in the South China Sea uh they've talked

0:04:13

about uh conquering portions of space um so I brought a couple visuals just of course of course um what's very interesting is I just learned about this uh over the last few days the lrange points around the Earth and the moon and this is the Earth

0:04:32

and here's the moon and there are five basically strategic parking spots uh in the gravitational uh pull uh between the Moon and the Earth where uh different assets can be parked in those places uh for various purposes and unfortunately

0:04:50

what we understand that the CCP is trying to control those particular parking spots for navigation positioning and surveillance in space um OD od's 2024 threat assessment states that by 2030 China will achieve worldclass

0:05:05

status in all but a few technology areas um they've already developed civilian and Military Assets in space including kinetic kill missiles uh they landed the first Rover to explore the Dark Side of the Moon and in quite a technological

0:05:24

feet they actually now have a permanent space station called yangong and it was stationed uh in space in 2021 I mean this is really an incredible technological feat for them to put that up there now they have 900 satellites in

0:05:41

orbit half of which have the ability to detect and track US aircraft carriers as well as um Naval movements and so I would hope that someday we can once again engage in cooperation with China and the PRC with with regard to space space exploration

0:06:01

but at the moment under xiin ping there is a real Space Race and so given that fact um we have to up our game uh work with our partners and allies uh in exploring space in creating the rules of the road for space and I really look

0:06:21

forward to hearing from all of you and my distinguished colleagues uh about ways that we can work together on that thank you thank you we have three incredible Witnesses The Honorable Jim binstein was the 13th administrator of

0:06:33

the National Aeronautics and Space Administration I think we over only overlapped on H for about a year or two but it was a beautiful overlap it was amazing it was yeah uh the uh General retired John W Raymond served as the first Chief of

0:06:48

space operations for the United States space force from 2019 to 2022 and Mr Tory Bruno is the president CEO of United launch Alliance and American Aerospace manufacturer with that I want to welcome all of our Witnesses and

0:07:00

thank them for being here this morning Mr brightenstein you are now recognized for your opening remarks so I I'll just piggyback on some of what you guys have already talked about if that's okay um a couple of things um chairman you mentioned the Strategic

0:07:16

Defense Initiative Ronald Reagan and and you you followed you proceeded that with discussion about the 1969 moon landing um it it should be noted that the reason the Strategic Defense initiative was so effective even though we spent hardly

0:07:32

any money on it of course it was called the Star Wars program at the time but the reason it was so effective is because the Soviets believed we could achieve it uh here in the United States people said it's too expensive not

0:07:45

technologically achievable um it it will never be complete all those types of things and while while all of that was quite accurate the Soviets believed we could achieve it for one reason they saw just 12 or 13 years prior to that they

0:08:00

saw people walking on the surface of the Moon and accomplishment they were not able to achieve so these types of stunning achievements and Raj I should say ranking member you mentioned specifically the Mars Landers and The

0:08:12

Rovers um a and and those are those types of stunning achievements as well um so so it it not only provides a piece of information that can deter an opponent or a competitor in this case but it also can inspire a nation and and

0:08:29

that is why it's important for this country to have these stunning achievements moving forward um ranking member you mentioned CIS lunar space you talked about the L grangian points there are other areas around the Moon where or the Earth Moon

0:08:46

you know any area where the Earth Moon Gravity the the gravity well of the earth and the gravity well of the Moon there's shared space where assets can balance there you had the legrangian points there are others there there's we

0:09:00

talked a lot at Nasa about the near rectal linear Halo orbit there are other Halo orbits where assets can station for long periods of time without using very much fuel at all this is why it is so important for us as a nation to do

0:09:15

things like have domain awareness in CIS lunar space even Beyond those lran points that you that you demonstrated we need domain awareness we need navigation we need communication for those specific domains I'll finish by

0:09:30

saying and the question is why why is um most of our highest value assets are in geostationary orbit when we think about our nuclear command and control and our missile warning and those types of things and if those assets can be

0:09:45

attacked from above uh that that's a huge vulnerability where we need to know what's happening you know General Saltzman talks about the fact that um we need we need to you know avoid operational surprise well the only way

0:10:00

to avoid operational surprise is to have domain awareness that is superior to anything that's ever existed before and and we need we need to get there quickly uh so so the the CIS lunar domain is critically important ranking member you

0:10:13

also mentioned the Chinese space station I want to be really clear the value of space um right now is immense it's going to grow exponentially as people start understanding what the value of microgravity is uh we can create pH

0:10:29

pharmaceutical crystals in space that will transform medicine on Earth we're talking about medicines that exist today that take I'm talking about cancer treatments that take three to four months before we can determine whether

0:10:41

or not they're efficacious we can get that we can get that down to two to three weeks based on how crystals form in space in the microgravity space compared to how they form on Earth they they can they can form in a more perfect

0:10:53

way we can create new and different types of crystals we can create crystals that will treat diseases that right now are not treatable but we're only at the beginning people say it's the tip of the iceberg I would say it's not an iceberg

0:11:04

at all we understand an iceberg when it comes to microgravity space this is a this is a whole new kind of territory and and and we have developed this capability to understand it with the International Space Station um and

0:11:18

here's the here's my fear my fear is the International Space Station is going to come to its end which by the way needs to happen that needs to be a certainty why because private companies right now are capitalizing commercial space

0:11:31

stations and and we need certainty as to what the future looks like so that that Capital can continue to flow we need numerous space stations um that are privately capitalized where they are competing for customers one of the

0:11:44

customers will be NASA or the US government in general General Raymond and I were talking earlier about how there's a national security imperative to this as well uh but but we need we need to make sure that the only nation

0:11:57

that develops and I talked about Pharm utic crystals we're talking about regenerative medicine we can grow tissue chairman we can take your skin cells we can reverse them into stem cells we can then create your tissue that is you heart tissue nerve tissue

0:12:11

vein tissue it it your your body won't reject it because it is in fact you today it's tissue tomorrow it's going to be full organs this has and we just brought home from the International Space Station a brand new meniscus that was 3D printed

0:12:26

in space uh designed for a very specific person so these capabilities are going to be transformational for regenerative medicine but it's also Advanced Materials we're creating we have created artificial retinas for the human eyeball

0:12:41

so people who have macular degeneration don't have to go blind like these are these are things you can't do in the gravity well of Earth and now that we're finally understanding it we're at risk of losing the International Space

0:12:52

Station without our own commercial space stations and China is going to be the only game in town and all of our International partners that we have paid to build their capacity they're all going to be looking to China for a space

0:13:03

station um so I know there's broad agreement on this panel on these issues gentlemen you you identified some key ones right out of the gate uh but space is critical not you think about the whole you know the dime theory of National Power diplomatic power

0:13:19

information military economic space plays in every one of them the economic power we're only scratching the surface right now but diplomatic we have international relationships critical important information that's the

0:13:31

Strategic Defense Initiative it's it's the Apollo program and on the to to General Raymond but uh thank you guys for uh for this conversation thank you you recognize for opening thank you chairman Gallagher ranking member Christ

0:13:44

morthy and distinguished members of the committee thank you for the invitation to to participate today in the round table having retired as the United States space Force's first chief of space operations in December of 2022 I

0:13:58

appeared before you today in a personal capacity and not representing any government or any commercial entity I applaud the work of this committee uh this important committee and I feel privileged to appear alongside Jim brightenstein and Tory Bruno uh two

0:14:12

gentlemen that I am privileged to call friends although I retired I remain Resolute in the fact that assured access to space and freedom to maneuver in to in from space are vital national interests this access serves as the

0:14:27

foundation for for as as Jim just said for all of our instruments of national power against all competitors especially regarding the effectiveness of military forces it elevates our status as a global great power it helps us attract

0:14:42

Global allies and partners allows for Science and and exploration and historically even in times of War has provided an option for cooperation among nations I also firmly believe that the space domain offers our nation the best

0:14:57

opportunity to deter conflict and maintain global stability and security unfortunately we no longer have the luxury of taking this access to space and the advantages that that access provides for granted um intensifying strategic competition with China

0:15:13

presents a serious threat to the US National Security and that competition expands into the space domain I believe that that competition over the next 10 years might be the most critical 10 years in the history of our space

0:15:26

program and we cannot afford to lose fortunately in 2019 with the strong support of a bipartisan Congress the United States established the United States space force thanks to your legislation it is clear that we are better postured today than we were just

0:15:40

four years ago but there remains much work to do to stay ahead of uh this pacing Chinese threat so that we can compete and deter and win in space in order not to have to do that in other domains China has a robust space program

0:15:56

that is a source of national pride and keepy to president G's China dream to establish a powerful and prosperous Nation China is building a full Suite of counter space capabilities to threaten us systems in all orbits while at the

0:16:10

same time they're building and integrating into their military operations an impressive array of space capabilities that rival those of the United States China's space enabled military can detect locate track Target and therefore strike US forces placing

0:16:27

them at Great risk a risk that we can't accept dod's pivot to a more distributed and resilient architecture helps deny China the benefit of attacking our satellites and reduces the first mover advantage that currently is associated

0:16:43

with our current architecture we need to keep our foot on the accelerator and complete the transition uh to move off the Legacy architecture which is extremely costly this is the most consequential work the space force has accomplished since its

0:16:57

establishment although resilience is a priority resilience alone is not enough to protect our Land Air and Maritime forces the United States must have the ability to achieve space superiority and to do so with responsible counter space

0:17:11

activity we must be able to impose costs on an adversary to more effectively deter actions that place our Joint Forces under great risk we need to accelerate our counter space efforts to protect our Joint Force I've really appreciated the Department's and

0:17:27

congress's favorable budget priorization for space over the last few years however I am very concerned about the funding reduction in this year's space force budget now is not the time for decreasing or flat space budgets I agree

0:17:41

with General Saltzman the space force is a work in progress we need to complete this work and we need to do so at speed China is not slowing down this budget reduction increases the risk to both our space capabilities our Joint Force and

0:17:55

our ability to compete deter and win time timely budgets that prioritize both resilience and space security are critical to our national security with all the challenges uh come opportunities with every challenge comes out

0:18:08

opportunities and I do believe with Congressional support we can capitalize on the many opportunities that are associated with space first we need to continue to develop new and mature existing Partnerships that is a strength of the

0:18:22

United States we are clearly stronger together we need to continue to lead the development of norms of behavior to shape what we consider a safe and responsible behavior in this domain rather than being shaped by our adversaries we need to develop rules so

0:18:37

the space force can have a more fused relationship with commercial industry to be able to capitalize on this Innovation that's occurring in commercial industry uh it is a US competitive strength and we need to do everything we can do to

0:18:49

harness that strength we need to review current trade regulations to ensure that we keep critical Technologies out of the hands of our adversaries but also enabling us to work closely with our allies and partners and finally uh

0:19:03

investing in First Rate Education and Training for our Guardians for our people represent our greatest strength again sir I appreciate the opportunity to be here I appreciate the opportunity to be here with these two gentleman and

0:19:15

I thank you for your opportunity General Mr Bruno you're now recognized thank you chairman gallager ranking member of Christian mcy and distinguished members of the committee it's an honor and a privilege to speak before you on this

0:19:27

pressing matter of competion ition between the United States and China a great power competition and from this point forward I will be your personal rocket scientist and as such I must compliment the racking member on his uh butting understanding of orbital

0:19:45

mechanics and the significance well you handled it well sir and the significance of L grunch points is right on the near rectal linear Halo orbit that Jim referred to by the way is an L2 orbit so they are in fact that

0:20:03

important I think it's important that we also recognize that space has simultaneously become much more important to us National Security while also becoming so much more vulnerable to our adversaries especially China it's no

0:20:18

longer a force multiplier for us like it once was space is now required for basic military Effectiveness without it it's not that our forces are better it's that they are essentially impotent and where once we were worried about

0:20:34

terrestrial uh conflicts extending into space we now know and understand that that will begin in space and then extend down to the ground consequently China understands this as well and they have invested heavily in Space over the last

0:20:51

two decades billions of dollars of time in effort uh they possess four to five times the number of rocks pocket the number of launch sites and the Personnel working in space than we in fact do here in the United States they have acquired

0:21:08

most of their technology from us by illegal legal and even industrial infiltration means and cfus for example must absolutely evolve it is a good foundation but this is now a great power competition where we will uh close off

0:21:28

Avenues and they will open new ones so it cannot be static for decades at a time anymore from this point forward you know with this capability and the technology they have taken from us they have gone from a few dozen spacecraft on

0:21:41

orbit to nearly 700 here just in a span of a few years their birds are everywhere from Leo a scant 500 kilometers above your head all the way out to Geo at 30,000 km and Beyond while our fundamental technology remains Superior to China and

0:22:02

I say that with great confidence and knowledge of the subject they have invested heavily in applying those basic Technologies to space weapons and anti-satellite capabilities and they are deploying those right now at a shockingly rapid Pace but we have

0:22:20

opportunities to counter this while vast their infrastructure is inefficient it is expensive and it is brittle with respect to prolonged economic stress and a curtailment or cessation of Western investment which by the way is almost

0:22:38

half a trillion dollars a year into China's economy could that capability that they have now so that is an opportunity we have through our economy our allies and our whole of government approach while they have developed space

0:22:54

weapons of Novel types they remain very very dependent on acquiring technology from the United States on an ongoing basis so this must be curtailed as well and while they have a 20year lead on us in this regard only a handful of

0:23:12

Innovative Technologies and capabilities could LeapFrog all of that and make it entirely Irrelevant for example we here at Ula I have been investing in Upper stage technologies that have recently gone through war games and shown to have

0:23:28

a turn effect uh in short we are driving towards providing our country with an on orbit Navy that could ensure the freedom of navigation of Earth orbit those are the kind of capabilities that will render all of that Chinese investment in

0:23:45

time irrelevant send them back to the showers China's infiltration of our industrial base must stop we must force them to develop their own techn techologies from scratch which they are not well prepared to do within a command economy unlike

0:24:04

our system that Fosters competition and Innovation we can lever that culture of innovation in the industrial partnership between government and Private Industry to make those Chinese capabilities Irrelevant in just one fill swoop so I

0:24:21

look forward to your questions today and I appreciate the work of the committee on this very important and pressing topic thank you thank you all um okay so last week uh the Prime Minister of Japan addressed Congress gave a great speech and at one

0:24:37

point near the end recognized two of his astronauts that I think were going to the International Space or just come from the International Space yeah okay something clearly I was paying attention um they're going to the Moon okay yeah

0:24:51

um it was a great moment and it just makes me wonder obviously one of our relative advantages compared to China is that we have this network of allies and partners they're they allies and partners well they don't consider them

0:25:02

allies they consider them sort of vassals and they're a rogue's gallery of Russia Iran North Korea what allies or Partners or or countries that may not fit neatly into either of those categories do you view as most crucial

0:25:17

to winning this race with China going forward General you look like you're eager to comment uh but I want everyone to to weigh in yeah yeah space is space is a team sport you have it's a global domain you have to have

0:25:33

allies and partners historically on the National Security space business we haven't had the partners that we've needed uh in the domain the domain was peaceful benign without a threat and back then you really didn't need them I

0:25:44

worked very closely with Jim this one of the areas that NASA and the space force cooperated on most of our Partnerships were through NASA today I will tell you the second most consequential thing that space force has done besides the

0:25:56

rearching of on honorable capabilities is developing and maturing those Partnerships so today the Partnerships for the space force are the five eyes Partners plus um France Germany and and Japan and then just this uh last year

0:26:13

we've added to that Italy and Norway and so we call those our combined space operations Partners CPO you'll hear it referred to those are our closest Partners we have sharing agreements where we share space uh uh data awareness information with with many

0:26:29

many many others but those that we operate together train together war game together now build capabilities together like we're doing with both Norway and Japan uh those would be the countries that I would uh that I would say are

0:26:42

closest I would like to uh further a relationship with India because I think that's going to be hugely important in the future as well great uh Jim you I would say um on the National Security side I know that they are focused at Space Systems command on

0:26:59

Allied by Design I hear that all the time from folks over on that side on the NASA side we don't do National Security and defense so we have the opportunity to partner with a lot of countries that you normally wouldn't see us partnering

0:27:10

with um when Eisenhower created NASA there was a strong effort to put it inside the department of the army and Eisenhower said no we're going to have a separate independent agency that has the ability to focus on science technology

0:27:24

um but also diplomacy and so if you go back in time you have see NASA as a great tool of diplomacy even in the height of the Cold War after six moon landings we partnered with the Soviets on the the Apollo soyuz program which

0:27:41

was you know a Channel of communication and a tool of diplomacy uh that was novel at the time we went from from that to the shuttle Mir program and then we went onto the International Space Station half of which is today Russian

0:27:56

that of course is an extraordinarily Tred relationship at this point given what's happening happening in Ukraine but I will also say that as you contemplate NASA we really need to think of it as a great tool of diplomacy and I

0:28:10

do think that the US government has been um has not been capable of understanding that it is a it is a tool of diplomacy in the sense that you if we get into a trade war with China and they have an interest in participating in something

0:28:27

that we're doing whether whether it's maybe a Mars mission or something you know in space we can put things on the table um that is in their interest and it doesn't cost us anything to do that but we we I will say the executive

0:28:41

branch and this has been going on for years has not been as has not maximized the utility of NASA as a tool of diplomacy to exact advantages for our own country um as as it otherwise could but I would say starting with the emis

0:28:56

Accords which we initiated when I was at Nasa at the time I left I think we were in the in the the teens as far as countries that had signed we're now up to 35 these are countries that have basically stated in principle we want to

0:29:10

be part of the emis program but in order to do so we're going to adhere to these basic philos philosophies and they and and and by the way it is it is an enforcement mechanism quite frankly for the outer space treaty which says look

0:29:23

if you if you're not going to comply with the outer space treaty you can't be part of the Artemis program yeah it's a forcing function and so I think NASA is a tool uh of diplomacy in these types of areas and I think it's often overlooked

0:29:36

um by our leaders in the executive branch Mr Bruno perhaps from the private sector perspective which countries are particularly important or might surprise us in terms of the capability well maybe not surprising uh from an industrial

0:29:47

point of view and in National strategy you want to start with the understanding you're not going to beat China on a numbers game um this is about technology and so our techn techology partners are Europe UK and Japan and I agree with

0:30:02

General Raymond that India is an untapped resource that we need to take a very hard look at having a closer relationship with them because we're not going to win this by catching up to China's 20 years of investment we're

0:30:15

only going to win this by getting in front of them by leapfrogging them with capability interesting Mr Ken there we go okay hi um thank thank you for for walking us through this you know I appreciate the the Chairman's framing talking about this both on a

0:30:34

tactical level but also uh in some ways like a narrative level I mean talking about the unifying capacity that this played uh during the Cold War and how perhaps that could happen again I guess my question though is that you know is

0:30:49

that you know when when we're talking about a a race when we're talking about we're framing in that kind of capacity I guess my question is is is what's the end goal yeah you know what's what's the Finish Line right it's like you know it

0:31:01

was it was much clearer during the' 60s in terms of these missions of saying like you know we want to achieve this step then this step and then ultimately get to the moon right and that was something that was very easy for the

0:31:13

American people to kind of conceptualize and get excited about uh you know you you've talked about a number of different capacities and capabilities medical scientific military but uh what I'm just trying to get a sense of from

0:31:27

you all is you know from your perch and your Vantage Point is there sort of a a py way to be able to engage and talk about this in kind of broader public terms that can try to articulate to the American people why is this worth

0:31:43

investing in and why is this something you should get excited about uh and something that because like look that's what it's going to take for us to be able to Marshall the resources that we need to be able to engage to be able to

0:31:56

talk about both the threat side but also you know the the pioneering side and and try to engage I mean you know I understand I took my two kids to go see the emis launch you know it's exciting it's something that can capture that

0:32:08

imagination but I I'd love to just hear from you how do we articulate what the finish line is you know what our objectives are well it's continuing to lead the world in an environment that values democracy and cherishes human dignity

0:32:24

China intends to export its authoritarian form of government in its faceless bureaucracy a global power they've recognized that space is our Achilles heel and they're using that asymmetric opportunity to be able to dominate terrestrially through military

0:32:42

intimidation and economic power you cannot separate our prosperity and our safety and our freedom any longer from space if we're going to preserve Freedom we have to preserve the freedom of space I I would I would add um agree with

0:33:02

everything Tori just said I would also add um the the the question about what is the the end State space I don't think there is an end State here in this sense you know when I was the NASA administrator a number of discoveries

0:33:18

were made that were stunning to me that my agency was working on and I I really wasn't aware of it until that I got briefed on these things but we we discovered that Mars is covered in complex organic compounds the building

0:33:31

blocks for life are all over Mars they don't exist on the moon at all but they're all over Mars we discovered that the methane cycles of Mars match the seasons of Mars that doesn't guarantee that there's Life on Mars it could be

0:33:44

geological in nature but the probability just went up a little bit more of course we we' known that Mars has a polar ice cap we now know that Mars likely has based on observation liquid water 12 km under its surface what do we know about

0:34:00

liquid water on Earth wherever it exists there's life and that's true if you're talking about a raindrop or any other any other drop of water there's life now the question is this will somebody someday make a discovery that will be significant on

0:34:16

Mars and I'll want be really clear I am not saying that Mars has life I don't know I'm not saying that Mars ever used to have life but based on the Rovers we've put we've put on Mars we know that Mars has an ocean it had an ocean uh the

0:34:29

northern hemisphere of Mars was 2/3 covered with ocean at one point there are we have roover a Rover in a river Delta right now on Mars that is now dry um we we know that if it had an ocean it had a magnetosphere that protected it

0:34:42

from radiation which means it also had an atmosphere Mars was at one time habitable doesn't mean it was inhabited but it was one time habitable you add all these things up and you say a discovery could be made hasn't been made

0:34:54

yet but a discovery could be made of Life on another world and when that Discovery is made it adds chapters to history books and science books and in my view those chapters sh it should be the United States of America and its allies and partners that

0:35:10

make that Discovery uh because that is a stunning achievement that the whole world is going to Rally around and it would be it would be every bit as Mo you know Monumental as Neil Armstrong landing on the moon I mean that is a

0:35:24

part of of information power when we think about the dime theory of National Power that that I think we we need to lead on as a country um and so but but does it stop let's say that Discovery is made and it's us does it stop there no

0:35:38

that's just the beginning um so I I would say when it comes to these types of achievements we have to constantly be pushing the The Edge and that's that's really what NASA does yeah I would agree with everything that's been said uh put

0:35:51

a little sharper point on it for the American people most people don't understand how Reliant their life is on Space it you can't see it you can't touch it you can't feel it it's it's orbiting way overhead but I was looking

0:36:05

around and looking at cups of coffee before you had your first cup of coffee you use space multiple multiple times and you don't even know it U I will tell you the endstate from my perspective um is a domain that allows for global

0:36:19

stability a domain that allows for Innovation that's going to impact every American's way of life in ways that they can only dream about today um and uh an uh endstate that allows for Science and Technology uh as as Jim has articulated

0:36:38

very very clearly uh and a domain that allows us to deter conflict uh globally it is a space is a huge Force multiplier and although people say it's expensive it is a an extremely good value for the dollars you put in because of the the

0:36:54

great benefits that we achieved from it yeah no look um I I'll I'll bring this to a close but um let let's keep in touch about this let's keep thinking about it because you know I think that that narrative is so key you know not

0:37:05

just in terms of our work in space it's key to this committee's work in terms of how do you frame the competition between you know the two most powerful countries in the world and you know on this particular one you know I I think that

0:37:19

you know when you when you think about it even just the the the sheer word that exists because of what has happened which is you know the moonshot right like I think America is ready for another moonshop moment now whether or not that means space or using

0:37:31

appropriating that term for something else but like to what extent can we say like look like let's use this for you know let's invest on the medical side to be able to cure this or that or you know and be able to use microgravity or

0:37:45

whatnot to really be able to show where are we getting towards you know if it's if it's Mars that we sort of set our eyes towards like you know do we make that kind of bold claim in that kind of way as a sort of a Beyond emis but you

0:37:57

know I just think that it's it is important to be able to articulate some type of vision um to the broader public for them to get excited about for them to understand the relevance in their own lives um but um I don't know it's just

0:38:10

just something that we'll have to keep added about back to you J if I could add I'm sorry j if I could add one more thing to what Jim touched on We Now understand that the moon itself in what we call near Earth objects which are

0:38:24

asteroids just beyond the moon's orbit contain an unimaginable abundance of Natural Resources so when we're in other committees and people are thinking about you know the finite resources on this planet and how we are all trying to live

0:38:40

smaller and smaller lives and use less resources here on Earth because eventually they're going to run out and our civilization will collapse perish the thought about three days from here there are Industrial Metals and precious

0:38:54

metals that are Beyond human imagination the poti potential to change our entire human Destiny and they are nearly Within Reach now one of NASA's great discoveries Along by the way with the Indian space agency is that the moon is

0:39:09

full of water and water easily converts to the most energetic chemical rocket propellants we have and the presence of those propellants outsid Earth gravity well already in space makes a transportation system practical that can

0:39:24

develop those natural resources in change our human Destiny yeah I was just going to add based on your closing comment there uh sir space Also provides is a domain that is inspiring when I was a young kid Tor uh same I'm sure watch man walk on the

0:39:45

moon and we're inspired by that I will tell you today with all the things that are going on in all sectors of space whether it's civil with NASA uh National Security with uh uh with the space force and uh or with commercial industry that

0:39:59

is so vibrant uh what you're seeing today is you have more people applying for STEM related degrees in universities than we've ever had before i' I've gone around maybe I don't want to say that in recent times I've gone around and talked

0:40:11

to to University presidents and there's a lot more interest in this I think that's going to pay dividends for our nation for years and years and years to come yeah uh Carlos I don't know I don't have a list everyone will have time don't

0:40:30

worry hey I've been a a huge fan of space since I was a kid um and I remember the the first moon landing and um it goes I was um 14 years old at the time um also also I'm a student of history and and if anything's history's

0:40:50

taught me anything is that the Nations that lead the world are the Nations that are exploring throughout history right and so um while we may have been first to the Moon that happened 50 years ago we need to be first to the Moon again because if

0:41:08

we're not if China actually beats us back to the Moon then it will be a signal to the rest of the world that we're on the decline and they're on the ascent that being said I'm concerned we went from a suborbital you know we went suborbital with Shepherd

0:41:26

you know in ' 61 and we landed on the moon in 69 that's eight years we've been trying to develop this Artemis program and uh and the um and the launch vehicle for 10 15 years and when I look at the architecture it's just a souped up

0:41:47

Apollo what the heck is going on and why aren't we there already I mean we were supposed to be on the Moon this year you know according to uh to President Bush he wanted us get us backed by 2024 we're nowhere close to doing that my fear is

0:42:02

that the Chinese are working to get there and beat us so you know do you have any more information and why is it that these systems are taking so long to develop when we were there 50 years ago to a guy like me it doesn't make any

0:42:21

sense I have my theory and my theory is a fear of failure oh uh so no so that that hampers us because you know if something blows up with NASA you've got two years worth of of hearings as to why that thing blew up that's right and whereas other folks

0:42:41

like you get you know musk and SpaceX it blows up hey great that's fantastic it was a success let's do it again right and we need to get past that here in Congress all right so so you know if you can give me your insights on that

0:42:55

appreciate it I I think there's a number of things uh over time that have conspired to slow our progress to the moon and obviously then to Mars but I think um I think to start um we have had programs started and stopped with the Whimsical budgets

0:43:11

of politicians and I'm not saying that to be critical of this body but I am certainly being critical of this body sure um so the and I've been a part of it I remember when I was on the science committee my very first hearing was

0:43:25

about uh this Mission the asteroid redirect Mission and and it was interesting how um in all of the Democrats were in favor of going to Mars and all of the Republicans were in favor of going to the moon and we were debating whether

0:43:40

we're going to go to the moon or Mars and I remember thinking how dumb it is that this is a partisan a divisive partisan issue well if you if you back up it it's it's one Administration starts a program the next Administration

0:43:53

cancels it and starts another program the next Administration canc that one and starts another program this has been going on you know George Herbert Walker Bush had the space exploration initiative it got canceled for a

0:44:05

different initiative then George W bush had the vision for space exploration included the constellation program that got canceled and so yes it is it is it is starts and stops and wasted billions of dollars and lots of time now all that

0:44:21

being said what is the solution and there's other issues I want to be really clear this nation made a deter mination years ago that we were going to build the International Space Station which has now been in orbit for we've had

0:44:34

people living and working in space for 25 years in a row which is a stunning achievement it's also an extraordinarily expensive achievement so the question is how long do we want the government operating a space station in low earth

0:44:47

orbit or do we want to transfer that to commercial partners and then the government can do what point for example going to the moon and then onto Mars so we have to make these transitions I will tell you you we're also terrible as a

0:44:58

nation at making these transitions we look at when the space shuttle ended we had you know a 10-year gap before we had you know commercial crew launching astronauts to the International Space Station by the way during that time

0:45:11

we're spending a hundred million a seat with the Russian soy use Rockets to get to the International Space Station these are policy decisions that are that are made uh whimsically um based on whoever's in office at the time and what

0:45:27

we need is stability and I'll tell you there's two ways to go about doing that number one we need Congressional authorization that is that is up to date every year which doesn't happen I think it's it's very rare that NASA has an

0:45:41

authorization in a given year um and then we need we need Appropriations that are consistent year in and year out um and and we haven't had that either uh and and I I also want to be clear um there's there are things that we can do

0:45:56

apart from Congress which is how do we commercialize as much of these capabilities as possible so that so that the budgets are not dependent on you know whether or not the NASA budget is going up which this year it's being cut

0:46:10

which now throws everything into a frenzy we're having to make I say we I'm no longer at Nasa to be clear but hard decisions are having to be made right now and and money by by cutting the money you actually waste the money

0:46:23

because at the end of the day we don't achieve the accomplishments that we set out to achieve so the I've got other theories and ideas Congressman I'd love to talk to you at length about it but I think um those are just some of them I

0:46:38

I'm I'll I'm a military person not a civil person so I won't talk about the race to the moon although I think it's critical but I will talk about the need to go fast and I got asked I used to get asked when I was the chief of space

0:46:50

operations I used to get ask all the time what kept you awake at night and it wasn't the technology piece that was keeping me awake at night it was how fast they were going and how slow we were going and I look back in our

0:47:01

history we've had we've had in our history as you mentioned as relating to the Moon we've had the ability to go fast before from my perspective what has happened is we we have controlled the shot clock for so long on the on the

0:47:14

National Security side and we don't anymore and we had the luxury of controlling that and being able to Pace um Pace how we deliver capabilities the capabilities that we have today are very large very Exquisite very expensive and

0:47:29

you don't get a do if you launch them and they don't work and so it drives a risk tolerance that is uh that you can't accept a lot of risk on what what the space force is trying to do with leveraging commercial industry and it to

0:47:43

a greater extent is to be able to change that risk calculus um and to be able to move at speeds that we haven't been able to do before so you'll hear about the the shift from large Exquisite to proliferated smaller satellites that are

0:47:57

cheaper that are coming off of an assembly line so if something doesn't work it doesn't matter because it's there's another one coming off in an hour right uh that's not the model that we have today and so as I mentioned in

0:48:09

my opening statement the the most consequential work the space force is doing is making that shift to a to a a new model a hybrid model there'll be there'll be large Exquisite things but there'll be others that will allow us to

0:48:22

go at speed and to to uh be more Innovative l commercial and leverage International Partners in a way that we haven't been able to do so add the perspective that uh Jim pointed out China has a strength in that they are able to set a plan and stay on

0:48:39

it for five 10 15 years and obviously that is a strength that they have but it also means they are vulnerable to disruption so when we have a plan we should follow it through but we also need to leverage this partnership we

0:48:56

have Within industry with government our ability to innovate and uh you know let them go ahead and spend 15 or 20 years and then disrupt them at the end there isn't a single technology that I see China applying in space or by the way in

0:49:11

things like hypersonics that I did not personally work on myself 20 years ago we set those down when we pivoted to the global war on terror they stole that technology and they have kept with it all this time and that's why today it

0:49:25

looks like they're going super fast because we're at the end of that long chain that's okay we'll just innovate something else send them back 20 years if I could piggy back and I agree with everything that Tori just said I I

0:49:38

would add the I think and I've said this a lot even when I was at Nasa we we will never out centrally plan China because we have too many members of Congress and Senators with special interests in their districts and so we we also have a

0:49:53

governance issue where you know we're we're building Hardware that may be obsolete because it's protecting jobs in somebody's home District so we we can't out centrally plan China but what we can do and this is I think what Tori is

0:50:06

talking about we can out entrepreneur China and that's where the Innovation takes place that's where the stunning you know developments that for example you know dropping the cost of access to space which I know Tori has been working

0:50:20

on for a decade now um those things are coming online now that are going to be fundamentally transformation for this nation and it and those programs are not are not they're not driven by government they're driven by the government setting

0:50:35

conditions that say we're going to buy your service who can provide us the best access at the lowest price and then the the entrepreneurial Spirit of this country takes over and that's the transformation that where where we can definitely outpace

0:50:49

China Miss Stevens and Miss Dr down um thank you so much Mr chair and i' I'd be remiss not to thank you for a great term uh and your leadership in the chairmanship I believe this is my last meeting with you in this role and um I I

0:51:08

would just say it's been u a sincere honor to travel the world with you and to engage in uh a topic a career topic of of a lifetime which is the US uh competition with with China and rest assured sir that the the work will

0:51:25

continue uh your your voice will be missed and your rigorous running of committee meetings and hearings and getting us all on airplanes and moving around at the same time um but but thank you and on behalf of the Midwest uh we

0:51:41

thank you also for your your leadership I'd like to come back to Detroit though provided we go to a better bar than molar took us to I think about that every day very weird it was very weird uh story for a different day it was odd though rain check

0:51:57

absolutely uh and certainly Mr brightenstein it's nice to see you again and I I think back to some of the the time that we got to spend together uh when you were the NASA administrator and I was just a newly elected member of of

0:52:12

Congress on the house Science and Space uh technology committee which I'm still on even though I'm in the minority party but we're uh continuing to work together in a very collaborative and bipartisan way and um Mr y menz was also on science

0:52:26

but you left us so now I I get to boast the role of being the only science Committee Member who also sits on this China competition committee and and this really is such an important topic I mean my goodness gracious uh thank you for

0:52:41

the testimony and and and the q&as of which I've been able to participate in this far I I wanted to actually follow up on the low earth orbit and the hypersonics and and just trying to almost back this out a minute to to really understand

0:52:57

and what we can do to compete because I happen to have a conversation with Rada which is kind of an American company kind of in Europe at London and all this and that and they're doing the low earth orbit satellites uh tied to hypersonics

0:53:15

and speaking directly to the CEO just as this select committee was getting started the abuse that he was experiencing on the international stage Visa the ccps want to uh dominate in low earth orbits and particular related to

0:53:34

hypersonics it it was actually just frightening to listen to as a lawmaker uh and very jolting to to to me uh in in in the sense of yes I'm from Metro Detroit I'm you know represent the you know the high concentration of

0:53:49

Automotive suppliers and remain really dedicated but a lot of those are household names and what we saw here with Rada was a a uh company that was kind of a startup that was trying to get into this space of what you were just

0:54:01

discussing Mr Bruno and and and and and yet they they were just being kicked around on the global stage and I mean we're talking Espionage illegal activities being perpetrated against them and we see this as clear as days China CCP was just

0:54:20

trying to own this and they're not a known entity and we're over here to your point Mr brighten just trying to protect you know maybe obsolete hardware and doing these little ones and twos it's like where's the strategy what do we

0:54:35

need to do on low earth orbits I understand the investment and how best can we work with our International Partners I personally find it who are allies I personally find this one of the biggest risk areas and I I agree let's

0:54:50

let's strategically invest let's have a private sector that flourishes you know talk to SpaceX talk to Blue origin all the great suppliers let's keep going with all that but we we are weak when it comes to the defense component here the

0:55:05

National Security and what's going on you know outside of our atmosphere where we are incredibly vulnerable I mean it it truly and and that's maybe my opinion but I certainly love your feedback sir yeah the first thing to appreciate

0:55:23

about hypersonics is that that's a shorthand term for maneuvering hypersonics all medium and long range ballistic missiles and Rockets are Hypersonic it's not the velocity it's the fact that it can deviate from that path it was set upon so when you have a

0:55:40

Hypersonic threat it's absolutely essential to have what we call birth to death to death custody of it in other words you have to be able to observe it through its entire flight path because it might deviate from that that's what

0:55:54

Leo helps us do for hyp Hypersonic threat um when it deviates that's important because we stop a Hypersonic threat or any threat like that in missile defense with another Hypersonic rocket and so you have to aim in front

0:56:11

of the target you launch your rocket you're committed to that intercept point and then it moves and you miss that's why it's a big deal so we need to observe the maneuver and frankly the proper defense defense for hypersonics

0:56:23

is directed energy you are never going to out run a speed of light round it's as simple as that and when we talk about long range Regional or not theater but Regional level um Hypersonic threats we need to place that directed energy

0:56:39

platform in low earth orbit in space in order to have that Viewpoint are we anywhere on this the directed energy part was also set down 20 years ago and has not been robustly picked up what we have been making excellent progress on

0:56:56

is producing our own Hypersonic platforms because they're useful for us too in order to deter China's use of them against US general I would just add um and use this as a way to to illustrate two two points this I've talked about the shift from an old

0:57:15

architecture to a new architecture the number one architecture that we've made that we pivoted on was missile warning missile tracking and the reason why we did that was that today the satellite that we have although the world's best

0:57:28

are designed to detect a ballistic missile means it is not maneuverable and so so because of the the the emerging Hypersonic threats we had to go lower to be able to track those uh as they maneuver and so again it was going from

0:57:48

large Exquisite satellites and geosynchronous orbit to many many satellites in lowth orbit to be able to to track that at the same time you get a second benefit rather than having handfuls of satellites to do that total Earth

0:58:00

coverage and and have persistence in lowth orbit you have to have hundreds and therefore you complicate the targeting of an adversary being able to deny your access to that to that capability so you got a you got a twofer on that one you you get to do the

0:58:13

mission better and you get to uh protect your your constellations a little greater because you proliferated in in numbers and orbits and so that's that's the work that I was talking about to get to your point ma'am on inter

0:58:26

International Partnerships I think one of the things you're seeing in space is that technology is moving so fast that it's outpacing some of the policy and Regulatory and organizational Frameworks that are there uh as an example uh itar

0:58:41

which was designed to keep technology out of the hands of an ad adversary well that clearly hasn't worked China has you know technolog is outpace that and they've got a lot of that technology it keeps technology out of the hands of

0:58:54

five eyes allies in a lot of that's that's what I saying what's happening is it's impacting our ability to work with our our closest partners and so that's another one of those areas where I think there's there's work to be

0:59:06

done to refresh that to allow us to work with our allies and partners more effectively to H be integrated by Design up front and I think those are that's an example of probably several uh policy Frameworks that needs to be looked at

0:59:22

just because of the pic technology change no and and certainly is up uh you know a couple of times and hopefully Mr Gallagher and his private sector role or public life that he'll have not not in elected office will publish papers on

0:59:38

itre reform and as the committee continues to it' be very interesting for us to think about a subcommittee dedicated to this space consideration uh partly because it is incredibly nuanced and complex and frankly it deserves

0:59:56

dedicated attention what I saw with the and look this up with this revada because they started going and all of a sudden it was just boom we're going to kick you out we don't want you in low earth orbit for hypersonics you know and

1:00:10

again I'm not trying to do their bidding I just you know I'm on the committee I've been doing this work and you know we're just getting pushed around we're beh 20 years behind on investments here and the minute we try and you know on

1:00:21

through a private sector route go in we're pushed out yeah the other thing that I would say is that there's a lot happening in low earth orbit the numbers that we've talked about the numbers of satellites that are in orbit you know

1:00:33

the proliferated lowth orbit constellations that are that are uh up there today and and and continuing to be developed uh it has outpaced uh again one of those uh one of those Frameworks the the the outer space treaty outer space treaty provided a it

1:00:51

provides a great Foundation I'm not saying do away with that but we need to build on top of that some norms Behavior yes on how to operate in this domain and in a manner that is safe and professional and we need to be the ones

1:01:03

that shape that not letting our adversaries shape that or put those rules in place and shape us and so I I really believe that's another key aspect of this that we need to think through is what is the what are the Norms of

1:01:18

behavior that need to be uh put in place and we're working that very hard with our allies and and partners the US has stepped up and has been a leader in that we've said we will not conduct a destructive test and cause debris uh

1:01:32

We've we've talked about we're going to uh limit uh limit debris I me the Department of Defense has really put in some some work we've worked this very closely with our partners but there is so much more work to do on that and that

1:01:43

is an area that I think needs to be addressed yeah well thank you so much for your leadership I want I would add one thing because General Raymond and I have now talked a lot about the benefits of Leo for resiliency and for capability

1:01:56

I want to leave you with the oneandone kind of uh impression that's always a mistake uh deterring aggression in space requires multiple orbits multiple orbits multiple orbits yes ma'am Leo gives us that capability for things like birth to

1:02:12

death tracking resiliency and communication systems but don't make the mistake of thinking that because it is proliferated and we can lose a certain percentage without losing the capability that it's invulnerable Leo is very accessible from the ground

1:02:28

it's 15 minutes away that's it let's go and uh it uh you know the proliferated nature of it brings its own vulnerability yeah yeah that's right China can choose to create a hole in any Leo network over Taiwan or the first or

1:02:49

second island chain at a duration of their choosing at any time yeah by destroying only a hand full of those assets literally a quantity equal to or Les than the natural infant mortality of those constellations through which to

1:03:05

initiate an attack that's why higher orbits that are also looking at similar things are very very important because they have to deal with the complication of destroying the proliferated assets while simultaneously going five or 10

1:03:20

hours out to higher orbits to address those at exactly the same moment while having their conventional forces also poised for the attack that is a military problem to solve so think of this as a whole system in order to deter

1:03:37

them and the Starling component too but with that you'll be Dr D so that let me add start by adding my uh echoing M step's comments you it's been a lot of fun to work with you and we she also ched you got to have to continue to work

1:03:52

for us so now on I I like this I want nothing more than to be obscure academic uh perhaps living in Western Australia writing about the nuances of itar Reform so this is like what I'm suited for oh that's funny Jim great to see you again

1:04:06

great to have you back it's it's fun General Raymond I I we had a chance to reconnect here just before the the meeting I have a son who was under your command for years uh he's a clever Rascal I I hope he followed your orders

1:04:19

morning didn't mind uh so we're working on several things in Florida by the way Mr Brewer you're surpr Ula and you had a very Marshal tone to your some of your comments I kind of like that so maybe you've been hanging around General

1:04:33

Rayman a lot but um uh Florida I want to plug a couple of things we're uh we're working on uh helping you get more launch facilities not just in the State of Florida but throughout the country and do that by by we have a bill we're

1:04:46

running for uh allowing tax exempt bonds for spaceports find think it's pretty simple it's like roads and bridges and this is another set of infrastructure out think there's any opposition to it it's just as Jim knows it's hard

1:05:00

sometimes to get really good simple things through uh we will get that through and I think that's a good incentive it also helps with the commercial as we say as opposed to the uh the government carrying the ball all the time uh everybody's uh enthused

1:05:14

inspired by space you heard that all around Steven's already ready to go to orbit here 15 minutes um there's some other good things we're doing in the education I heard your comments Gent about uh stem education uh we have made

1:05:29

real efforts at stem and Engineering specific space uh uh facilities uh in the University system in Florida and I'm sure other states are doing the same thing uh so there is a some good news out there I especially like some of your

1:05:45

comments on uh establishing norms for behavior in space rules for engagement so I'm going to ask I'm going to ask you to talk about rules for engagement and I have to I have to say I was fascinated by Raj's lrange points I want to know

1:05:58

share just a little bit of the strategy of did why why why own a lrange it's a gravity well basically but uh why own the lrange points specifically what what advantage does it give over you know being able to maneuver higher even or farther out even or or

1:06:16

closer in um and then I'd like to talk about China threats what we need to do specifically maybe you should something you could kind of point to Congress and say you should uh or we need to do this and we need your help those kind of

1:06:29

things uh and finally I want some comments on directed energy and I'll I'll remind you as we go along gentlemen take it away split this up amongst let me talk space threats okay uh there's a full spectrum of threats that are that exist today everything

1:06:50

from reversible jamming of GPS and Communications satellites uh to um directed energy threats think lasers that can blind or Dazzle satellites to satellites that are on orbit that um uh have characteristics of that could be

1:07:13

a weapon as well and I'll give you a couple examples uh China has a satellite that has a robotic arm that can reach out and grab another satellite and space Geeks like Tori will tell you that satell don't like to be grabbed and

1:07:26

that'd be a bad day for for that satellite uh we were talking and I know we're focusing on on China I think it's also important to note that you could the same thing applies to Russia they're doing all these same same similar types

1:07:38

of things Russia has a satellite that um they launched first in 2017 then in 2019 I deemed it the nesting doll satellite have you seen the Russian doll inside of a doll inside of a doll they have a satellite that launches the doll opens

1:07:54

up if you will and another satellite comes out and then it opens up and a projectile comes out designed to kill a US satellite uh they launched that in 17 they launched that again in 19 in 19 they put it up right next to one of our

1:08:07

satellites and um we called them out on it and then eventually they moved away and shot the projectile in a without uh in an area space where there was another sell there's uh um directed uh direct Ascent ASAT threat so missiles that can

1:08:24

launch from the ground that 15 minute trip to space if there's a satellite in lowth orbit uh both China and Russia have have missiles that can launch from the ground and blow up a satellite uh in a handful of minutes um uh which is a

1:08:41

destructive tests in China demonstrated that in 2007 uh Russia has demonstrated that more recently uh then there's uh cyber threats satellites are basically computers in space and just as they cyber threats to to computers on the

1:08:55

ground there's satellites there's there's cyber threats to to to satellites as well that we're concerned about and that we're uh uh working um uh hard to understand the Cyber terrain so we can protect and defend from those

1:09:08

threats as well and then recently I just read in the paper uh that um you know there was talk about Russia potentially launching a nuclear weapon in space and so I would you know there's this whole spectrum of threats that are out there

1:09:22

um we're trying to build systems and build AR architectures that are resilient from by the design of that architectures to be uh resilient to that whole series of threats and um uh that's really the the hard work the space force

1:09:37

is doing today but it's clear today that space is a war fighting domain just like air land and sea and it's clear uh that we've got to be able to to deter conflict from beginning or extending into space uh we do not want to get into

1:09:52

a fight uh that that either begins or or ends there we would like to to be able to deter that from happening if you can deter that from happening then you can uh deter conflict from spilling over into other domains I'll let I think the

1:10:05

L range points are key Terrain in military terminology I'll let uh Tori give you the tutorial on you've captured the essence it's a location where the Moon and the Earth in this case any two bodies but the Moon and the Earth are

1:10:20

their gravity fields are interacting and what's important about them is that you can place a spacecraft there and maintain that location with very little energy you always have to put energy in spacecraft are always going to drift and

1:10:34

change in their orbit because the Earth is not really a sphere and because other things act upon them the life of the spacecraft is directly proportional how much energy it has to do for space or for station keeping and L Grange points

1:10:48

make that smaller they also allow you to be at a different altitude but still have the same orbital period so when the ranking member showed that picture and he showed a LR point between Earth and the Moon you normally can't be there and

1:11:07

have a 20 you know have a lunar period you would be closer to the Earth so you'd be orbiting faster the L grch Point allows you to basically stay at that same orbital period as the moon so it acts like a g stationary it does in a

1:11:21

lot of ways yes so they're very important there're places where we would store fuel where we would store propellant where we would Place uh observation spacecraft uh because it's it's inexpensive to keep them there and they're

1:11:36

stable I like that how about directed energy directed energy has a couple of very unique capabilities that no other weapons platform would have first the round is literally speed of light so the maneuvering issue that was discussed

1:11:51

before you can't outmaneuver it if you can see it you can shoot it it's it's pretty much that simple the next thing it has is a bottomless magazine it's an energy based weapon as long as you have energy electricity generally you are not

1:12:08

out of ever out of ammunition and then a directed Energy System generically also has dialable effects they naturally turn up and down in their power so you can Dazzle you can annoy or you can destroy and they're very Precision uh in terms

1:12:26

of targeting so if we are defending ourselves against a space-based uh anti-satellite weapon we're able to choose and have options to choose to Blind it so it can't find us uh to damage it without creating a debris field and it's certainly never going to

1:12:45

get away and certainly for a Hypersonic maneuvering threat it's really the right and only practical solution what cheap we're looking what what can you tell us in this setting about our current abilities and directed weapons nothing

1:13:01

um say that one more time I didn't hear what can you tell us in this setting about our current abilities and directed energy weapons we'd have to go to another setting okay yeah uh it's it's cheaper too yeah of course it's very

1:13:14

inexpensive high up front cost just pick Mr uh brightenstein Curious to get your views on counter space campaigning offensive and defensive such as exist a I I'll get to that one second I want to say Sor to Neil uh number one I'm sorry

1:13:32

uh Congressman done no come on you're allowed you're in you're in the club so you're allowed right yeah so tax except bonds for space ports uh 100% support it's it's by the way that's the minimum we need to do Tori will be the first to

1:13:46

tell you if you're asking if you're asking a private company that launches Rockets to space if you're asking them to build the space port it's like asking American Airlines to build the airport it doesn't make sense there needs to be

1:14:00

government intervention to build the space ports that are necessary for this country so I fully support that I export even more but if I can help with that let me know uh number two um the on the legrangian points and Tori I think

1:14:13

described it perfectly well but as a Navy guy I'm a Navy pilot by trade I would tell you you have to think about lran points as like choke points on the ocean so think about like the straight of hor access to the Persian Gulf the straight

1:14:28

of Mala to get to the Indian Ocean these are all very important choke points on Earth uh if you want to keep channels of communication open those are those are and they have to be protected uh left alone the worst people will control

1:14:43

those areas uh and that's going to be true in the L grangian points as well um to to to uh the Chairman's uh question I I can I can tell you as a as a Navy pilot I saw firsthand um in the days of Afghanistan and Iraq the early

1:15:01

days we were we were using high resolution motion picture images and we were sending them around the globe instantaneously with satellite Communications China and Russia watched us do it um we were using intelligence surveillance reconnaissance assets from

1:15:17

space that were giving us a huge advantage in the battlefield on Earth um we we were of course we're using satellites for basically missile warning and of course GPS for precision guided Munitions and timing for networks uh

1:15:31

when we think about link 16 and these capabilities our ability to project power abroad is so dependent on space that most most people don't understand it but but if if we were to and by China and Russia they've been watching this

1:15:48

which is why as the general identified that's why they've been developing these capabilities the nesting doll that he mentioned the idea that you can as Tori mentioned direct Ascent anti-satellite weapons we have never weaponized space

1:16:02

in the sense that we're going to Target things from space we've not done that um we've not weaponized space in the sense that we're going to destroy things in space we've not done that what we've done is we've used space as an enabler

1:16:13

for the terrestrial fight that's been our Force our power projection overmatch that that has it has aided Us in every war that I was ever involved in China and Russia are going to counter that and they have and that's why we have to worry about these new

1:16:31

technologies that are perating direct descent anti-satellite weapons co-orbital anti-satellite satellites um with with spoofing jamming dazzling hacking all these things are now proliferating and and so the there's a new era and of course General Saltzman

1:16:48

has said that we we need to have a new era where we are involved in what he calls respons counter space campaigning in other words we have to be able to defend our Assets in space and if our enemy is using their assets to attack our troops on the

1:17:06

ground we have to be able to attack their Assets in space now he uses the word responsible and I think that's key because we don't want to create large debris fields in space but this is a new this is a new era uh it's a new era of

1:17:17

how we as a nation think about space General saltsman has gone out on a limb to say it's time for this to happen I will tell you it makes all of us very nervous because all of us who have you know astronauts in space want to make

1:17:28

sure they're safe but the reality is uh think about an invasion of Taiwan scenario which I know this committee thinks about all the time if that happens and China is interested in making sure that we can't use these capabilities in space think about what

1:17:45

happens when they attack GPS yeah or or they make us deaf dumb and blind um that that goes from a regional tactical scenario to to a strategic scenario just like that yeah and and it's a very dangerous development so we we have to

1:18:00

be able to do counter space campaigning it needs to be responsible uh but I'll tell you what this group could do what Congress could do is pass a sense of Congress that it's time for us to adopt as National policy the development of responsible counter

1:18:17

space that's a big idea that's big could I just before General I have a point of privilege here because the ranking member only has a few moments before he has to go I uh he gave me a very nice gift yesterday and I I'm bad at giving

1:18:28

gifts uh so I wanted to give him something in um in remembrance and in honor of the No Limits partnership that we've developed inspired by your comments about Taiwan I want this to Forever hang in your uh in your office

1:18:44

this is us doing the Predator handshake on a mountain in Taiwan a strength of a sign of strength in America and Congressional partnership so I'll sign this and get it to your office but I just wanted to hand this to you right here thank all right here here

1:19:04

perfect awesome I'm gonna get a Sharpie I'm gonna say something here I'll have it delivered to your office nice yeah yeah something nice I'm might do a mustache on you and there's gonna be a bubble I'm sorry I'm bouncing between heing so I apologize

1:19:18

all right Perfect all right I'll see you in a bed General I would just uh summarize two things first space is a huge Force multiplier um we cannot afford to build a Navy an army an Air Force or Marine Corps that can operate without space

1:19:35

you'd have to have significant amount of more forces space enables us to do so much more with with less Force structure and we've we've benefited from that at at the end of the Cold War uh and reduced Force structure that's all been

1:19:48

enabled because of space and so you have to you have to be able to protect and defend the capabilities that you have on the on the flip side of that China has seen that as as Jim said and have integrated space into their operations

1:20:02

they have a very uh very good space enabled military that threatens our army that threatens our Navy that threatens our our Air Force we have it's sacred duty to be able to protect those folks as well and that's why you have to build

1:20:17

this responsible uh counter space campaign so we can protect those forces cuz they're they're being they're being watched they're being tracked they can be targeted and they can be killed uh with that space enabled military from

1:20:31

China you know one thing I would add to that General is that we've talked we've touched on it but I want to make it really clear the focus in detering aggression in space has been largely about resiliency most recently we have

1:20:46

to add the ability to defend ourselves resiliency is important we don't want to offer a single knockout punch Pearl Harbor opportunity to our adversary but if we think we're going to be in a conflict and allow them to keep

1:20:59

destroying assets at will for some prolonged period of time we're not thinking about this right at some point you have to make them stop shooting classic deterrence calculus deny benefits and impose costs we have been focused on the deny benefits part

1:21:14

of that with resilience we need to also have the ability to impose costs do you uh give me one and then I'll deep questions about it in this true turn on the mic yeah yeah yeah so 10 years ago I developed a directed Energy System specifically for the

1:21:33

cassam threat that Israel suffers for example a relatively inexpensive system to develop primarily because I was leveraging technical knowhow for from the Airborne laser program that had been recently um uh canceled and so that

1:21:50

system was running about 15 20 kilow it was capable of destroying small short range ballistic missiles drones and boats uh the cost to kill was about a dollar it ran on a decent generator uh can I can I drop a bell sponsoring

1:22:09

that yeah I know Carlos uh here let me just get one and then we'll go to you Carlos an odd question Jim by the way remind me what you flew in the Navy and what your call sign was I I start off in E2 Hawkeyes I transition to the F-18

1:22:23

Hornet and my my call sign was brain stem brain stem yeah can I ask about the origin of this or uh maybe another time okay over I tell people it's because I'm smart sounds like that yeah yeah that's not the smart part right that's right

1:22:40

okay so given that you served here and then uh LED NASA I just be curious to get your view of how congressional oversight of space in general and NASA in particular is structured and whether there might be an art argument for some

1:22:55

sort of better alignment of committees or streamlining of committee oversight does that make sense yeah it it does um so I I think it's it's important to note uh I think it's really important we need NASA authorization every year we need a

1:23:14

consistent um a consistent kind of framework by which to operate I think Administration when going from one Administration to the next I want to be really clear uh Sen Senor Bill Nelson is now the NASA administrator and we've had

1:23:27

many conversations about the need for consistency um the programs that I started at Nasa whether it was commercial lunar payload services to go to the Moon commercially with with uh with with robots or you know instruments he he he he wanted to move

1:23:43

forward with it and he has and same with the Artemis program he's moved forward with it um and and same with commercial Leo destinations he's moved forward with it all of these things um I think are important and I would I would argue that

1:23:57

whoever comes after him needs to have consistency as well it's continuity of purpose that's ultimately what has been missing quite frankly for decades um and and and I think it's important that that that continues to the extent that we

1:24:12

have Congress involved in an authorization that codifies the the the activities that are happening that's very important because what it says is you know when we work on things at Nasa we're working on things that are decadal

1:24:28

in nature or even generational in nature and so the you know the Whimsical budgets of of administrations coming in um is is a huge waste of time and money if if there's huge fluctuations in the direction that we're going so um I think

1:24:44

authorizations and I'm a I'm an authorizer from the house by trade a lot of people just focus on Appropriations Appropriations are one year at a time and they can change quickly authorization is here's your direction

1:24:57

and it's it's in perpetuity and if if it needs to be updated update it uh but I I do think that it's important to have both um I think the science committee does a good job um on on on working to get I I can tell you everybody on the

1:25:11

science committee when I was there everybody wanted to do a NASA authorization every year getting it through the Full House and getting it on the agenda is often very challenging yeah could I add one on the National Security side um I think we're at a a

1:25:28

significant uh shift in the character of warfare and that character Warfare is really requiring U Intel and DOD to to be fused in ways uh very very much closer than we've had in the past when I would come forward with and and we're working very

1:25:47

very hard to build the strongest relationship we've ever had with the national reconnaissance office for example when I would come from board in my job with the director of the national reconnaissance office we go to two

1:25:58

different intelligence or two different committee sets the intelligence committees versus the defense committees and there are rules on information that can be shared at the classified level between those committees I really

1:26:09

believe as in the Intel community and DOD gets closer together uh by necessity that there is room for some information sharing at the with the oversight committees to be able to do that because it it really limits uh our ability to

1:26:24

have conversations with with both committees I've seen that as a HK and hipsy member firsthand um if I ever come back to Congress I intend to chair the select committee on the strategic competition between authorizing and

1:26:36

Appropriations they should be combined into one they should yeah we were talking about yesterday caros you have a question yeah we were talking about that yesterday and I and I I actually share his point of view that um authorizing

1:26:48

and and uh Appropriations makes no sense to me it should be one you know this is the this is what we want to do and this is how much we want to spend on it I I'm for that okay uh it makes no actually to me I'm almost I feel almost worthless

1:27:03

okay um I authorize something and then it goes to Appropriations and yeah maybe they'll fund it maybe they won't uh so what the heck am I doing all right uh I'm used to being I was I was a mayor and I was a mayor of a big city and so

1:27:15

I'm used to saying yeah we're gonna this what we're going to do and that's how much you're going to spend on it okay um much more efficient by the way uh so but anyway I I dig um with the with the wars that we've seen the asymmetric Warfare with drones

1:27:30

that are flying 40 mil hour $22,000 and they're carrying 10 pounds 15 30 pounds whatever we're shooting million dooll missiles at at something that cost 20,000 bucks we can't we can't continue to do that so directed energy is about

1:27:43

the way to go right um so talking about directed energy are you afraid that um is there directed energy capability now in space are the Chinese uh developing directed energy uh capabilities in space will they have a first strike capability

1:28:01

in space against our assets and then deny us space um can I have your thoughts on that please we're in the wrong room again yeah China can China uh has directed energy capabilities uh that uh they can use uh from the ground to

1:28:22

blind or Dazzle satellites and they could do that first I mean they don't have to wait for something to happen that's they have they have directed energy capabilities that they've developed to be able to do that Mr Bruno you uh you had mentioned

1:28:36

earlier that spaces are Achilles heel just in like layman's terms what do you what do you mean by that just because we're so dependent on it to kind of to General Raymond's Point earlier about we just take it for granted we are

1:28:50

completely dependent upon it and it's not protected and the asset are fragile yeah they know that they know we rely on it more than they do they can't contend with our terrestrial forces as they are so that's why they have invested to be

1:29:06

able to take space away from us got it and then you also mentioned I think that there was something we could do in one Fell Swoop to Leap Frog China was that denying investment in their space sector or what were you alluding to there I

1:29:22

talking about capabilities we could put into orbit that could effectively counter their anti-satellite satellites got it okay perfect uh this has been any other questions from the members it's been a great discussion what I'd like to

1:29:36

see going I mean going forward not that anyone's going to care what I think in a few days um I care yeah thank you thank you like Carlos maybe this is a Catholic thing sometimes I just feel worthless you know um uh I think it'd be very

1:29:54

interesting for the committee to go deep on the space competition with China um and I think there's just a lot of opportunity to come up with a creative set of recommendations uh some of which could be policy changes some of which

1:30:08

could be legislation your sense of Congress idea is one of those uh and I just think there's going to be a lot of interest in that so either in what remains of this Congress and the next Congress uh Miss Stevens sort of threw

1:30:19

out the idea of maybe organizing as subcommittees in key areas and I've thought that may be for like space Advanced biotech and then for Regions that are underappreciated I.E Latin American South American Chinese influence there you could have a Ser

1:30:37

three subcommittees or or in or deep investigations that come up with reports and policy recommendations to the standing committees I think that'd be really interesting just make sure one of the recommendations is destroy the

1:30:49

Appropriations committees uh uh thank you to our Witnesses it's incredible thank you for your service to the country and for your Insight we really uh really enjoyed it thank you

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