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watch 41 for see for to um hey hi thank you the chair May declare a recess at any time the hearing record will remain open for five legislative days so members May submit any materials they wish to be included therein thank you ranking member Kilmer um and U
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subcommittee members and the chairman I think will be here shortly as well as our witness for taking time today to be with us this is the modernization commit subcommittee's first legislative hearing we'll be learning more about two bills
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and one resolution that have been referred to the subcommittee and we'll have the opportunity to dive into what problems these measures address and what solutions they propose this should go without saying but legislative hearings like this one
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provide an important forum for members to gather information ask questions and form opinions or positions on the legislation before us legislative hearings are consistent with regular order but we don't see a lot of them at the subcommittee level these
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days and the same is true of markups on the subcommittee level but as the chair I think the subcommittee process is important and that is especially true here as we consider bills that directly relate to our mission to improve and
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modernize the institution and implement the recommendations of the select committee on modernization today today we will hear about two measures related to the Congressional Research Services ongoing efforts to modernize the way the agency
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works on behalf of Congress we will also learn more about a resolution introduced by my colleague ranking member Kilmer and co-sponsored by full committee ranking member mlli that's based on a select committee recommendation to
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create a congressional Commission on evidence-based policymaking the modernization subcommittee held a hearing in April of last year to examine crs's efforts to improve their processes and products in ways that reflect how today's Congress
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operates it was clear then that more work was needed but I am pleased to say that we have seen the a agency take positive steps to improve culture and modernize operations I am I I fully recognize the work CRS analysts do to support Congress
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that work is invaluable and I'm encouraged and excited with the results recent changes have yielded and I look forward to the continued progress and the modernization of CRS Robert I want to personally thank you for your leadership and on that note
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I am pleased that we are joined today by Robert nulan crs's interim director who in addition to speaking about the two CRS related bills on the agenda today will update the subcommittee on some of the agency's ongoing efforts to improve and enhance
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Services Mr nean will discuss the underlying problems that the two CRS bills address and explain how they will help strengthen the agency's mission to support Congress I'd like to note that for all members of the subcommittee uh we
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jointly introduce these bills as we all saw value and what they set forth to accomplish access to Federal agency data is a critical to crs's Mission to provide timely and accurate research and Analysis to Congress the agency's current statute
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which has hasn't been seriously modified in 50 years needs to be updated to reflect new forms and uses of data the select committee on monitorization recognized this problem and recommended enhancing support agency access to Federal data and the bill we
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are discussing today does just that the select committee also recommended examining legislative Support Agency authorities more broadly to determine if they need to be updated and this bill is certainly consistent with that
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goal I will say here that Our intention continues to be a larger examination of crs's organic statute with an eye toward developing more modern authorities and Congressional directives that better support crs's work and more accur
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accurately reflect the needs of Congress today we look forward to working with you Mr Lunen your successor and your entire team in this very important Endeavor modernizing how CRS produces and provides access to the Constitution
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annotated is also consistent with the goal of updating how the agency serves Congress Conan as this massive uh tomb is known has been available online since 2019 would you like to this there we go bicep work there we go yeah it's an arm dead let's turn that
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around so we can see it the digital version is regularly updated and has gotten millions of views since its Inception and meanwhile producing this hardbound version is costly according to the most recent estimates available from
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CRS and the GP the 2012 hardbound uh Conan costs taxpayers approximately $1 million to produce and we are waiting on estimates for the 2022 version but expect they will be nearly the same so getting rid of this Behemoth
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print requirement um enhances efficiency and is a very easy cost-saving measure the second panel today includes three witness experts who can share additional views on congress's access to the use of federal agency data they'll shed light
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on legislative and executive BR Branch interactions and provide perspective on some of the challenges analysts face accessing data and how the work that CRS does on behalf of members and staff is impacted when analysts can't get
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data understanding the different ways that data can inform the policymaking and oversight process is another important part of the conversation and is consideration and considering bipartisan uh I'm sorry is considering
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partisan bias in data and how we ensure the data is accurate and reliable uh at this time I will now recognize the ranking member Mr kelmer for the purpose of providing an opening statement thanks Madam chair and um thanks to our colleague and um the
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witnesses who are here uh at our inaugural legislative hearing on the subcommittee so way to go um I I think uh I'm excited about the three bills that we're taking up today I think taken collectively they bring us closer to the
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subcommittee's mission of making Congress work better for the American people each one of these bills hearkens back to a problem that we identified on the on the mcom uh the modernizing the Congressional Research Services access
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to data act uh is um speaks to recommendation 33 which states that Congressional support agencies should report on challenges and potential solutions for accessing Federal data director Dr nulan thank you for doing just that um which paved the way forward
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for this bill CRS statute developed in the 1970s states that federal agencies need to comply with data requests from Congress to serve congressional committees and it mentions that CRS is responsible for otherwise assisting individual member offices with
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informational requests however given the lack of explicit statutory reference to personal offices you've indicated that you at times have struggled to access necessary information from federal agencies to exec EX execute your mission
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of serving committees and personal offices alike your customer service mission to Congress is very important uh as I've mentioned before the subcommittee previously my team and I regularly use CRS the Amendments and bills and letter ideas we put forth are
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better because of crs's involvement and support to us thank you for not putting out a restraining order against my team um it matters that uh you have access to the federal data you need to do your jobs to update reports on on timely and
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pressing issues proactively and in response to specific requests that you have access um to that is on par uh with that provided to other legislative branch support agencies like the CBO for example so uh I am a proud co-sponsor of
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HR 7592 to this end and look forward to hearing your testimony on that um and and that of the second panel uh speaking of further select committee Recs uh that remain open and we'll touch on today recommendation 140 states that
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congressional committees including this one should examine support agency authorities and determine if they need to be updated thank you again director nulan for bringing the Conan issue to our attention in the spirit um you know
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this is about saving money this is about making sure that there's continued access for information the American people can receive better information online and we can save valuable CRS staff capacity and time and taxpayer
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dollars um uh so uh again um proud to co-sponsor that bill as well and then finally want to mention the Congressional evidence-based policymaking resolution part of what makes this subcommittee work and what sets us apart Is our commitment to
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looking at problems collecting a common set of data and facts about them and then respectfully negotiating the potential Solutions and then charting a path forward call me an optimist but I think that this institutions and members
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of both parties from every ideological persuasion could benefit from a similar approach simply put though we need sound evidence and nonpartisan facts about the pressing problems facing the American people people that would allow us to
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better design policies to measure their impact to conduct oversight and ultimately to improve outcomes for the American people the select committee on the modernization of Congress proposed the establishment of a bipartisan bamal
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Commission on evidence-based policymaking to facilitate this which would be accomplished by this bill uh this commission approach is supported by President as well former speaker Paul Ryan and the senior senator from my home
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state Patty Murray previously LED an effort to establish such a commission specific to the ex itive branch which was an effort I was proud to support that commission effort cleared the house under suspension of the rules and the
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Senate on unanimous consent it was signed into law in 2016 it was signed into law by President Obama and the recommendations that St stemm from the commission were turned into overwhelmingly bipartisan uh uh changes from the foundations for evidence-based
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policymaking act which was signed into law in 2019 by former president Trump the problems we face as a nation are hard but the idea that we will deliver more for our constituents and for our country with a common set of facts does
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not have to be hard one of our Witnesses today Nick Hart with the data Foundation was involved in those past executive branch efforts and can shed some light on how the legislative branch can get this right so thanks again to my
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colleagues thank you to subcommittee chair Bice our subcommittee colleagues and to each of our Witnesses for taking time to be here today look forward to your thoughts and suggestions regarding these bills and just appreciate your
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partnership on this uh important work of trying to make Congress work better for the people we represent and with that I yield back thank you Mr kelmer and at this time I'd like to recognize the fil committee chairman Mr style for the purpose of
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providing opening remarks thank you chair Bice uh thank you to the work that you and ranking member Kilmer are doing on the subcommittee on modernization uh you can tell there's energy on it because we have a full room uh including
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your daughter uh anley was here with us today uh so shout out there um today's subcommittee's uh first legislative hearing uh where we'll be focusing on Two Bills related to the Congressional research service and resolution focus on
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the possibility uh of a new Congressional Commission on evidence-based policymaking is as you said Miss Bice uh it's important that the legislative process even at the subcommittee level be carried out uh to achieve our mission and that mission is
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to modernize the institution a Congress that is modern is a Congress that can be more efficient uh two of the bills we're looking at today will help modernize CRS and support the work of Congress uh making our institution more effective um
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we will look into a possible evidence-based Congressional commission to help ensure that Congress can successfully use agency data and its policymaking and oversight and I look forward to seeing where these conversations take us today again thank
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you to the to you subcommittee chair Bice ranking member Kilmer uh for your work today uh and our Witnesses uh as well I yield back thank you chairman Style We Now welcome uh Mr Robert nulan the interim director of the Congressional research service Mr n
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Newan has a 42-year career at the Library of Congress holding leadership positions in CRS the law library and as Deputy librarian of Congress Mr nulan has also held a variety of positions in the American Library Association which
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includes serving as a member of the executive board and Senior Trustee of the Ala endowment he was the recipient of the Ala medal of excellence in 2016 for quote creative leadership of high order particularly in library management
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he most recently served as the executive director and director of strategic initiatives of the Dwight D opman foundation in Phoenix we appreciate your service Mr Nan and we appreciate you being here with us today and we're
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grateful for all of the work uh you've done and continue to do at CRS uh couple of housekeeping items please remember to press the button on the microphone in front of you so that the light is green when you begin to speak the timer in front of you will
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turn green and as previously agreed to by the subcommittee members you will have 7 minutes for your opening statement after 6 minutes the light will turn yellow when the red light comes on the seven minutes has expired and we
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kindly ask that you would please uh conclude your remarks and at this time Mr Newan I recognize you for seven minutes not seeing a green light I'm good thank you thank you you chairwoman Vice ranking member Kilmer and members
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of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to testify before you today especially at your inaugural hearing um about crs's need for legislative fixes that will support its modernization efforts and ensure access to Federal
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data and other information needed to effectively serve Congress I have three goals today first I will outline some of the challenges CRS faces in securing from uh securing information from federal agencies second I will make the
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case for the savings and efficiencies to be gained by transitioning to a digital only Constitution annotated finally I will highlight crs's progress with modernization over the past year and the initiatives the service has undertaken
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to ensure that it continues to provide exceptional service to the 21st century Congress it has been my honor to serve as the interim director of of CRS I have just completed N9 months and it has been both rewarding and
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challenging this there is much more to be done but I am confident that CRS is moving in the right direction and it will be in a good place when the new director begins uh several months from now my goal has been to identify areas
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of crs's operation where we can reduce costs add value and maximize the return on the taxpayers investment without diminishing service to Congress I have also closely reviewed the recommendations of the subcommittee which have guided my activities as
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director and technology has been one of our highest priorities I feel confident that the legislative initiatives discussed today support these goals I believe strongly in institutional stewardship and you might think of me as a loving critic of
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CRS I'm also mindful chairwoman Bice of our conversation early in tenure when we discussed the uh topic of return on investment for the resources invested in CRS and that has been a guiding mantra for me so thank you crs's mission is to
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provide congress with timely objective nonpartisan research analysis and information access to the data and other information held by federal agencies is critical to crs's ability to effectively carry out this important
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responsibility generally CRS is has been successful in securing the information that it needs however there have been instances when the service encountered resistance from federal agencies agencies have responded with directions
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to CRS to file Freedom of Information Act requests requireed disclosure of congressional office requesting the information and requested confidentiality insurances in other instances agencies have ignored or simply refused the request this sort of
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agency resistance can delay crs's response to Congressional clients and impede the service's ability to inform and advise Congress utilizing the most authoritative information available crs's governing statute provides limited authority to enable the
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service to address these challenges CRS is authorized to make information requests to federal agencies and requires those agencies to provide the requested information only when the request is quote authorized by a committee unquote and then only when CRS
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is acting as an agent of the committee the limitation to crs's work for committee committees leaves the service with no formal authority to acquire information it needs to support individual member offices or to conduct anticip anticipatory research and
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Analysis crs's current information access Authority originates from a time when Congress operated primarily under a committee Centric structure as legislative activity has become more dispersed crs's workload has expanded to
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include more requests from Individual member offices in fiscal year 2023 for example CRS responded to over 57,000 requests from Individual member and other Congressional offices broader Authority is required to ensure the services access to the information
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needed to effectively serve all congressional users The Authority CRS is SE is seeking would be comparable to that currently provided to our sister agencies CBO and GAO CRS is also requesting elimination of the statutory requirement to publish
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the Constitution annotated in hardbound copy and I brought my own copy so you'll have two currently the librarian of Congress is directed by Statute to print a decennial revised edition of Conan after every 10th term of the Supreme Court and
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cumulative pocket part supplements every two years in between the decennial Edition the costs of printing these copies are significant to both CRS and the government publishing office production costs for the 2012 12 version
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of Conan as you uh mentioned earlier chairwoman Vice totaled nearly $1 million primarily in GPO as you know CRS in collaboration with the Law Library of Congress and the library's Office of the Chief Information officer launched a new website for Conan in
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2019 the site features a search capability and hundreds of pages of constitutional analysis and content prepared by crs's legal staff the website has been overwhelmingly successful since its launch and it's received over 50 million
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views given the success of the Conan site CRS has requested amendment of Conan's authorizing statute to require its preparation in digital form only transition to a digital only Constitution annotated would provide significant Savings in time labor and
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taxpayer dollars and permit CRS to better deploy its resources toward the production of content for future enhancements of the website modernization uh initiative since I have just a short amount of time I'm going to go through those uh we've
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been very actively uh pursuing interactive graphics infographics and um story map um prototypes we're exploring many um um uh projects with um artificial intelligence applications be happy to tell you more about those we are working to strengthen our data
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and uh analytics capabilities and we're also very uh feel very privileged to participate in the new agency connection center in the Longworth building this is going to be a wonderful form of Outreach and we're very grateful for um having you include
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that in conclusion I want to express my appreciation to the librarian of Congress Dr Carla Hayden for the opportunity to once again serve alongside crs's talented staff a constant in CRS is the staff passion and dedication to serving the
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Congress on behalf of my excuse me my horse on behalf of my CRS colleagues I want to thank the subcommittee for its continued support and I welcome your questions thank you thank you Mr L nulan um we will now be in questioning and that will start
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with me follow by ranking member Kilmer and then we will alternate uh between members uh any member wishing to be recognized can signal a re request to the chair and at this time I'll now recognize myself for five minutes of
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questions um Mr Nan CRS has sought expanded access to agency data at least since the 112th Congress as we can best tell when legislation was last introduced to try to address this issue your testimony addresses what improved
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data access will do for CRS and for congress um can you give a little bit of color to what CRS will not do with expanded access to this Authority thank you for that question um we're very mindful of several things um First Security of the data and transfer
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of the data within the agency um we've been working with our um Chief Information officers here today to ensure that the data meets all the security standards for the library Congress which are extremely as always we will EXC maintain that in a
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confidential um can you address the potential concerns about expanded access leading to quote unquote fishing Expeditions um that could be more politically charged requests from from Congress certainly um can you sure I want to make sure that
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his microphone is working properly are we are you are you able to Great okay thank you um would you be willing or would you be able to address the potential concerns about expanded access to data leading to quote unquote fishing
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Expeditions or more politically charged requests from Congress yes thank you when members of Congress orites request do not ask them how they going to we may ask them um if it would help us in the research process but it's the light not coming out okay
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apologies there we go um there we go yes the um you you said you were going to allow them to request the data without asking them what the data would be used for and if they if we think it's important to know then we'll ask for the research process
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um but generally that isn't necessary but as with with everything we do it is always um confidential and um we do not share the information with anyone outside of the service or the member or committee office thank you um at this
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time I will recognize uh ranking member Kilmer for questions um thanks Madam chair uh you know this issue around data access and and you know how how to make sure CRS is getting What It Wants You Dr glasman mentioned in his written
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testimony that the new Authority would be more effective it if it was paired with an information campaign such that the agencies understand their obligation to provide CRS with such data any thoughts on how CRS might actually do that and how Congress can
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help you do that yes thank you the first thing we would do if we had this Authority is use it with the pending um pending requests that we have with several agencies right now um where we're having a lot of problem moving
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forward um they set up all kinds of roadblocks I can give you one example of one agency I I I won't say the name of the agency um I'll be happy to share it with you in private but I don't want to jeopardize our talks but they um told us
0:28:48
at one point that they considered um CRS analysts as the same thing as press and um we've had substantial conversations with them to to change that so it's really um it's really been very difficult yeah I wanted to um I think we
0:29:07
can only just look at this and it kind of makes the case for the for the bill but you know I think oftentimes you know when when something gets um put on a site it's only as valuable as its ease of search and the ability to navigate and you know if it's
0:29:22
visually interesting and if it's accurate so if this bill passes and Conan moves to a digital only format you know any guidance on what on how CRS will approach that to ensure that the digital version is you know state-of-the-art in its presentation and its
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usability yes absolutely um the big advantage of of the digital version is is that it's always up to date this the moment it came out it was outdated there have been Supreme Court decisions since this was printed that are not here So
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speaking as a librarian uh by training most Librarians would never put this book on their shelf um because they would be concerned there's no room for it there's no that's a big concern too um because uh they would be concerned that uh
0:30:15
Patron might look at this and think this was the authoritative source which it's not the advantage of the online version is is that we can link directly to Supreme Court cases we have embedded um embedded links the other thing is that we update
0:30:31
this very quickly if there's a court decision that um impacts uh the Constitution our lawyers um headed by uh San JRM who is with us today head of the American law division um updates this immediately so that we have real time um
0:30:49
real time information on the database we have um devoted considerable assets to ensuring that the um um that the uh virtual version of Conan is up to date and in good shape we always welcome feedback from anyone uh it's easy to do
0:31:08
on the site and we are very responsive um to those uh to those concerns the the final thing I want to ask about you know this conversation around this Behemoth as the chairwoman called it is actually a good sort of segue into another thing that we've been
0:31:25
working on which is the in case Act because it both touches on making sure that there's um information that's up to date and accurate and um two it's a it's an efficiency measure you know the the the Inc case act would require federal
0:31:43
agencies to provide better agency contacts to CRS and CRS in turn could share that information with house offices you know so that policy staff so District casework staff could be able to find the people that they need and that
0:31:58
was built upon the existing CRS report that details some agency legislative affairs contacts which we found sometimes either lacks the needed information or has outdated information and that means our staff um and committee staff and member office staff
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are spending time trying to track down information individually agency by agency or even contacting someone who no longer works at the agency by mistake you know which can cause delays in getting technical assistance um which
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can delay a constituent's casework claims and more so and it would um help us Implement one of the open recommendations of the monitorization committee so uh one just an invitation we'd love to find a way to work together
0:32:37
on this with you and I'd love to hear if there's other thoughts that you have about ways to improve efficiencies that you're pursuing at CRS well thank you um those um that report is the Congressional liaison report is our most
0:32:52
popular report it gets more hits than anything else so I think that you're right on to Target um Mr Kilmer because there's a huge interest in that and we would uh welcome the opportunity to explore how we might how we might do
0:33:07
that um we we've done some preliminary um thinking about it uh in terms of the resources that would be necessary and what how um what the governance structure would be of it so um we welcome the opportunity to sit down with
0:33:22
you and your staff and um see how we can improve on that um uh uh access to that kind of of um information thank you thanks Madam chair may you back thank you ranking member and at this time I recognize the chair of the full
0:33:37
committee Mr style uh thank you chair BCE um I I I have two questions I want to dive into one I would love you just to comment briefly about how the requests that come from members and staff uh to CRS have changed over the past 20 to 30
0:33:54
years certainly well with the um advances in Tech technology uh the first thing that I would observe is is that we no longer have those kind of simple reference questions population addresses that kind of thing people are finding
0:34:08
that themselves with Google and other tools what we're experiencing is that our the questions are harder and it takes um sometimes longer to answer the kinds of really detailed reference questions that members have um one thing that has been a
0:34:26
constant is the continued interest in um analysis and providing options to to the Congress um concerning legislation that's something that has been kind of a constant throughout um the history of CRS and something that we devote a lot
0:34:44
of resources to to ensuring that we have um uh the right analysts in place which is not always easy um but at the at the present moment we have a number of of positions that are outstanding in our resources Science and Industry section
0:35:00
and we look forward to filling those in the in the near future thank you let let me jump then to the second point we talked a lot about getting the data and data access to you this this the second side of that I think is is rank M Kilmer
0:35:12
was referencing is how do we utilize the data how do we present it um can you walk through just a little bit about how CRS is is positioned to take advantage of the data if it arise I'm thinking about data dashboards presentation um aspect
0:35:28
um training visualization other aspects that you've spent time on or other tools that you may need in that regard absolutely well one of the studies that gave us um really really good direction was a Rand study um done several years
0:35:44
ago and it um suggested that we start looking at newer analytic methods which we are which we are doing and also looking at cloud-based Solutions um which of course are very expensive right now um but that was one of the
0:36:01
recommendations um the other one was to apply newer data science methods and we have we have begun that process we have uh we have some of the I would say good staff that know how to manage that data um but we also have a request
0:36:20
outstanding at the moment in AER for about three million to continue that effort so that we have the ability um to manage Big Data thank you very much I appreciate the work you're doing uh over at CRS it's a it's a spectacular resource and
0:36:38
appreciate the work you uh chair Bice and ranking member Kilmer are doing as we look to uh continue to enhance the work and modernize it I'll yield back thank you Mr chairman uh at this time I recognize Mr Cary for five minutes for
0:36:52
questions well thank you for being here today um I'd like to focus a little bit on a I if that's all right um so crs's monitorization initiatives as it relates to AI can you tell us more about the working group and particularly the work
0:37:09
in exploring how AI might be used to expedite bill summary process yes absolutely we're very excited about artificial intelligence But like everyone we're we're taking it we're moving cautiously to ensure that um any
0:37:26
information that we get from AI is meets all of our standards of nonpartisanship authoritativeness um so we have a number of things in place right now the working group um looks for opportunities in CRS processes for short medium and long-term
0:37:47
projects that we might use we also coordinate very closely with the libraries um office of CIO with their um AI working group so right now we have we have dipped our toe in the water and one of the things that we're very excited
0:38:03
about is um a process that we're looking at right now to develop five models that would help us with Bill summaries we have a huge backlog of um Bill summaries uh and an analysis for congress.gov so we think there's potential for um AI to help us
0:38:28
with those summaries so we are exploring these five models as we speak we have a whole set of criteria that have to be met and our hope is is that we can implement this soon so that our staff can spend more time on the analysis
0:38:45
which is the you know the really hard work um and less time on the summaries but at the same time we have to be absolutely assur assured that that um that information is um a very high quality you may be familiar with the
0:39:00
effort that Politico did recently with with AI and we actually took some of the examples just to kind of um see um if if they were accurate and uh they did not pass the test so this is a good caution for us um to ensure that we always have
0:39:19
um the best data available well I mean it's it's definitely something that um you know I think it's finding its way into members offices and with off with the staff but um so another question how is uh CRS making members and their staff
0:39:34
aware of its new visually based products we're doing several things um at the present time we are um doing new work on our um our CRS website for members and staff and um we've been doing some development um I decided that
0:39:54
we needed to take kind of a harder look at this do some more consultation and um one of the things that we want to feature prominently are infographics interactive graphics and story and story book Maps so that's going to be one of
0:40:10
the primary ways we also have a number of Outreach um efforts that we do through our divisions um to uh client bases they send out um weekly um information about new reports that CRS is doing in areas that they're interested in in and we feature those um
0:40:29
those topics um or feature those kinds of products with infographics but one thing that would be helpful to us is we would like your help as well if there's any kind of forum where we can where CRS can uh be to talk about our services to
0:40:46
talk about the kind of innovative products that we're offering Congress we would be very very grateful and I would I would add to that you know I I came in in a special election now I'm former staff when I was the staff and then I
0:41:01
hate to say when I was the staff but uh long time ago um but you know um the thing that I the services that you provide are remarkable and um you know we we've have a number of members that have left and we've got a bunch of new
0:41:18
members that are going to be coming in as you know um uh special elections and so um however we can work with your office is because you know the you know the uh the thing about when you come in as a special election all your staff is
0:41:34
you don't have any staff you know and um but as you start getting those those those team members that come in and join your team it would be great to to work with your office to make sure they're well aware of the services and the the
0:41:47
things that you provide so absolutely and we would be very happy to work with your office to give you a really in-depth orientation as we would give any new member I'm I'm I'm more concerned about the ones that are coming
0:42:01
in um in in in the future because I know we we've talked about this I know the the chairwoman and I have um about orientation and when you're in a special election you don't have that you know it's just like here's your hat and
0:42:13
what's your hurry right so uh as we bring these new members in I would like very much to to make sure they coordinate with you so well this is something at the at the front of our priorities right now and that is the new
0:42:25
member seminar that we work with uh the committee um as soon as uh the new members are inducted uh we take them to Williamsburg Virginia and uh have three days of policy seminars um discussions about legislative process and procedure
0:42:45
budget process it provides an opportunity for members to get to know um CRS staff and their capacity and there's no one else present for disc distractions no staff no press um it's a very um very good program um uh I'd be remiss if I did not ask
0:43:08
this question um but what other areas um that you guys are doing I know you've you've done a lot with AI you've done a lot with the visually but but in terms of cost savings as it relates uh to your organization improved efficiency what
0:43:21
are what what are some of the things that you're Pur doing with CRS well thank you for asking that question and I was I I did not answer Mr Kilmer's question very thoroughly so I'm I'm glad that you've you've posed it so
0:43:34
when I came um when I started at CRS I uh had 13 focus groups within the span of uh five weeks where I met with staff in um in an informal situation to and this is the question I posed to them what is it that I can do in the short
0:43:54
time that I'm here to help you better serve the Congress and they came through with a lot of a lot of different ideas um for those that didn't want to participate in a forum um I encouraged them to send emails and I got 400 so I took all of
0:44:11
that information and uh started looking at what are loow hanging fruits in terms of efficiencies so we can get and I'll give you a couple examples so the staff were using a zoom account which you know our bread and butter is um you know
0:44:26
consultations with with members and staff whether it's in person or virtually so they unfortunately had the lowest priority Zoom account so at 40 minutes it would cut off they'd have to go back well you can imagine the
0:44:40
embarrassment if you're doing this with a member of Congress So within a week um thanks to our um uh the libraries technology office everybody in the service has a zoom that needs one has a zoom Pro account the other thing that I
0:44:56
discovered was actually two other things um uh because we have so many deadlines and one of our you know Hallmarks is responsiveness there was a lot of concern about it support in our divisions and offices and frustration with getting things resolved very
0:45:15
quickly and everything we do is deadline driven so you know if your printer isn't working your software isn't working we use all kinds of different software throughout the uh service depending on the the policy need so we did a pilot um where we
0:45:31
embedded technicians in the uh Service uh in the service unit and the offices and I can say that it's been 100% successful and it has reduced the time in in terms of efficiencies and the frustration that our analysts attorneys
0:45:51
and Librarians have in getting their um uh problems resolved the other thing which um has been wonderful with was a big complaint was um cell coverage and I'll give you I'll give you one example that I think is very graphic I was walking by an office
0:46:10
of um one of our uh government in finance analysts who routinely does briefings for members and I saw that she had her cell phone hanging in the in the like on the hinge of her door and I said Val what's what's going on here she said well
0:46:26
that's the only place in the office that it'll ring and I I said you can't be serious so she said yes when they when I answer it I stand there and then I tell the person I have to go out so that I can call you back well that was
0:46:39
ridiculous so again working with Judith Conlin and John rutage in our um office of CIO they've done all kinds of things to upgrade that Wi-Fi extenders um which has again improved efficiency and also o improved morale
0:46:58
well and and just to to go back to your thing when if if for some reason you're on a zoom and you cut off after 40 minutes I I'm a firm believer that the uh uh the mind can only handle what the seat can bear so that 40 minutes time
0:47:13
frame is probably not a bad thing so uh but with that uh I really appreciate your testimony uh I had an opportunity to read through it and uh thank you for being here today and with that Madam chair I yeld back thank you Mr krie
0:47:25
couple of just quick comments you mentioned the Williamsburg visit uh getting members together and having a conversation about some of those things and I think unfortunately as a member of the 117th uh Congressional class we unfortunately did not have that
0:47:39
opportunity which I think would have been fantastic but I would also say I think it would be helpful um to have some of those things with staff because you all especially your analysts are interacting with staff so much more than
0:47:51
even the members um directly and I think that we can hopefully try to find some ways to work with your team team uh to find um the opportunities to to put you all together um in person and then the second thing is you mentioned Ai and I
0:48:04
think that looking at whether or not we have the opportunity to utilize AI to uh create those Bill summaries is really I think important I also agree with you that caution has to be had though because if you were participating or
0:48:18
listen to the hearing yesterday which was really about Ai and the legislative process there was a lot of conversation around um in accurate information being um presented and I think that I look at it as sort of a garbage in garbage out
0:48:32
right whatever you put into uh that AI platform if it's not uh you know sort of vetted and thorough then it's going to come out uh Incorrect and the human oversight of that um not only on the front end but also as the product is
0:48:46
produced is going to be really important so I appreciate you sort of recognizing those pitfalls that have the potential to be problematic for you all one last final question before we wrap up this quick segment and that is um you know
0:48:59
you talked a little bit about some of the agencies that have been less than forthcoming with providing data to you have you um have you had any push back from um other entities that don't want you to have this data for some reason
0:49:15
have they been really forthcoming to say we don't want to give this to you uh and and what was their reason for that if they did probably less that they um they haven't been upfront about saying they don't want to give it to us but the
0:49:30
reality is they don't want to give it to us so they use different ways of um you know throwing up uh roadblocks requesting M they want to know which office that we're you know working for you know often often we're doing
0:49:46
anticipatory work so there is no office but often a member we to answer a request we need data from an agency and um we we've had some negotiations that have been going on for several years and that's why I'm I'm so delighted that the subcommittee has has
0:50:04
taken this up because this could be a huge um a huge Improvement for us and again it's something I heard from our our analytic staff about the frustration that they have and um it impacts our service to you that's right yeah Mr
0:50:21
nulan thank you so much for being with us this morning we appreciate your time and your testimony and look forward to continuing to move uh these initiatives forward so at this time we will um pause briefly to set for the second uh panel
0:50:35
of witnesses thank you for your time thank you sorry thank you there you go I will now introduce our second panel of witnesses our first witness is Miss Elise Bean the director of the Washington Office of the carl 11even center for uh oversight and de democracy
0:52:12
at Wayne State University Law School Miss Bean worked as an investigator for Senator Carl Len for 30 years including 15 years at the US Senate permanent subcommittee on investigations as staff director and chief counsel after leaving
0:52:26
the Senate she helped establish the Leven Center and now works to help legislators and staff conduct oversight investigations next we welcome Dr Matthew glasman a senior fellow at the government Affairs Institute at Georgetown University prior to joining
0:52:42
GI Matt spent 10 years on Capitol Hill at the Congressional research service including two years as a detaile to the legislative branch subcommittee on the house committee on Appropriations and our Final witness is Dr nich Hart president and CEO of data
0:52:59
Foundation previously Dr Hart served as a director of the bipartisan policy Center's evidence project building on his work as policy and research director for the US Commission on evidence-based policym uh thank you to our second panel
0:53:14
of witnesses for being with us this afternoon please remember to press the button on the microphone in front of you so the light comes on uh and when you begin speaking the um you'll have five minutes after four um the light will
0:53:26
turn yellow and when the red light comes on your five minutes have expired and we would kindly ask that you please wrap up your comments um and at this time I am delighted to recognize Miss Bean for five minutes subcommittee chair byce ranking
0:53:40
member Kilmer and the subcommittee members thank you for this opportunity to support the subcommittee's efforts to modernize and strengthen the Congressional research service especially because CRS strongly supports congressional
0:53:54
oversight as you mentioned I represent the Carl Leven Center for oversight and democracy which is part of Wayne State University Law School in Detroit Senator Leven used to say good government requires good oversight he also
0:54:08
appreciated the fact that the Supreme Court has long recognized congress's need for information to carry out its constitutional duties nearly a 100 years ago in an 8 to nothing opinion upholding a congressional subpoena seeking
0:54:21
information related to the attorney general the Supreme Court wrote quote the the power of inquiry which with process to enforce it is an essential and appropriate auxiliary to the legislative function a legislative body
0:54:34
cannot legislate wisely or effectively in the absence of information end quote the Supreme Court recently explicitly reaffirm those reaffirmed those principles in n in 2020 in the Mazar case investigating facts what happen in
0:54:51
why and analyzing complex problems are at the heart of congressional oversight their critical to congress's work to enact effective legislation allocate federal funds inform the public about what its government is doing and act as
0:55:05
a check on the executive branch 60 years ago the Supreme Court held that quote it is unquestionably the duty of all citizens to cooperate with the Congress in its efforts to obtain facts needed for intelligent legislative action end
0:55:20
quote the duty to cooperate with Congressional information requests including through CRS uh applies to federal agencies no less than others and is fundamental to the checks and balances envisioned by the Constitution CRS has long played a key
0:55:36
role in helping Congress gather facts and conduct effective oversight CRS employs hundreds of experts whose sole responsibility is to answer questions and provide research requested by Congress CRS has also built a reputation
0:55:50
is a source of nonpartisan reliable information trusted by both sides of the aisle and it produces a wealth of data in service to Congress its latest annual report states that in fiscal 2022 CRS responded to over 73,000 Cong Congressional requests for
0:56:10
information senat 11 and staff made frequent use of CRS to offer one example some years ago Senator Leven wanted to investigate how you set gasoline prices uh at the time his staff uh knew very little about the subject so we called in
0:56:26
CRS experts Who provided multiple briefings to educate both sides of the aisle at the same time on key facts how the gasoline Market worked what factors affected price where do you get data on gasoline prices over time and much more
0:56:41
it was invaluable assistance given uh our limited staff our limited resources and limited time CRS was a force multiplier and that's just one example the CRS annual report includes a list 65 pages long long of reports and other
0:56:57
written products issued during a single year on a vast array of topics for congress examples include US immigration courts in the pending cases backlog the dark web an overview a primer on China and Hong Kong cost benefit analysis in federal agency
0:57:17
rulemaking to produce those types of reports CRS needs access to data held by federal agencies for over 50 years to obtain agency information CRS has relied on a federal statute to USC section 166 which requires federal agencies to
0:57:33
comply with CRS information requests when those requests are authorized by committee it's time for Congress to modernize that law one of the bills under consideration today would do just that for example the bill would extend
0:57:49
crs's authority to obtain Agency information not only when CRS is authorized by a committee but also when authorized by an individual member of Congress or when CRS itself anticipates Congress will need the information the
0:58:03
bills also makes States explicitly that agencies must produce information in quote a timely manner end quote the improved statutory language would not of course cure all of the problems uh that CRS faces with agencies this subcommittee and other House and
0:58:20
Senate committees will still need to lend CRS an A Helping Hand by overseeing agency compliance iance with the law at the same time enacting a stronger statute would send a clear message to federal agencies that they are expected
0:58:33
to comply with CRS requests CRS is one of the few institutions dedicated to supporting the work of Congress including congressional oversight is also one of the few institutions trusted by both sides of the aisle in return
0:58:47
Congress should support CRS equipping CRS with better legal authority to obtain the information to which Congress is entitled under the constit ution will benefit every member of the House and Senate thank you thank you Miss bean and
0:59:02
at this time I recognize um Dr Glassman for five minutes chairwoman Vice ranking member Kilmer Congressman Cary thank you for the opportunity to testify today as you mentioned I'm a senior fellow at the government Affairs Institute at
0:59:17
Georgetown University and I'm also a lum of the Congressional research service where my portfolio consisted of institutional issues in Congress including Congressional operations budget Appropriations process and separation of powers I'm a legislative
0:59:30
branch Patriot and committed to the goal of a modern capable and Powerful legislature I strongly support the proposed legislation to expand sirus's access to data from the executive branch I want to make four points today first
0:59:44
access to data is vital for CRS crs's mission is to provide members and staff non-partisan objective authoritative And Timely research and Analysis to do this cus analysts used data from a wide variety of government academic and
0:59:59
private sector sources there's simply no way to do highquality research and policy analysis without data during my time at CRS I don't think there was a single day where I didn't use make use of the vast data collections available
1:00:13
to me at CRS or in the Library of Congress more than once I held my breath while looking for what I needed within CRS knowing that if I didn't find it there I was going to have to head to sources outside the library where the
1:00:24
wait would be longer and the results unknown second during my time at CRS I often experienced frustrating difficulties obtaining data from the executive branch in rare cases I was simply told by a federal agency I couldn't have the data
1:00:36
but more often my point of contact wasn't sure whether they should share the data with me in many cases they weren't even familiar with CRS where are you calling from is that a government agency was a very common response many
1:00:48
of these contacts quite reasonbly told me they'd have to check with their supervisors so my data request presumably pretty low priority on their busy agenda was often forgotten until I called back 3 Days Later only to have
1:00:59
the entire process start over again for data that I'd be requesting on an ongoing basis my usual strategy was collegial I tried to make a friend at the agency in this sense I often felt like I imagine journalists feel writing
1:01:11
stories right I always felt like I was asking someone to do me a favor to be clear in most cases where I sought data from the executive branch I eventually was able to get it but the time it could take the hassle of the process and the
1:01:23
possibility of ultimately not getting the data often led to a worse CRS response for congress third the proposed legislation we have here today will improve the situation especially if it's well implemented I fully support HR
1:01:38
7593 requiring executive branch agencies to share information for all requests not just committee requests will give CRS analysts and management a firm leg to stand on when we're cresting this data from the agencies for high-profile
1:01:50
data requests that management gets involved in negotiating the new Authority will be extremely helpful on its own and it'll be great for CS analyst to be able to politely point to statutory language in emails and phone
1:02:02
calls requesting data that said I don't believe the statutory Authority alone will fully solve the problem as noted earlier the stumbling block for me was often timeliness due to agency unfamiliarity with or uncertainty about
1:02:15
their obligations consequently for many analysts the agency simple data request the new Authority will be most effective if it's paired with an information campaign perhaps starting with the ledge ofair shops at the agencies such that
1:02:27
the agencies understand their updated obligations to provide CRS with data finally the need for these data access authorities should be seen as a first step towards broader statutory reform for CRS the CRS oranic statute
1:02:39
was last substantially revised in 1970 the reforms under consideration today suggest the entire statute could use a review Congress has changed significantly in the last 50 years two quick examples first in 1970 policym was
1:02:53
strongly centered in the committee system control contr by powerful old bull chairs and built on top of a strict seniority system in that atmosphere it was natural to organize a support agency like CRS around the Committees times
1:03:05
have changed the relative power of the committees has weakened and policymaking roles have expanded far outside the committee system CRF requests for analysis now routinely come from all corners of the Hill member offices
1:03:17
leadership CMOS even informal working groups second technology the 1970 act could not have foreseen the explosion of digital information and Communications available to members and staff all on computers carried in their pockets this has made some of cr's
1:03:33
statory mission seem plain anachronistic such as providing committees at the beginning of congress with lists of policy areas they might want to study while also in some ways making s seem more distant from the hill as emails and
1:03:44
PDF reports have replaced face-to-face briefings and physical information delivery updating the CR statute to adjust to these realities would better focus the mission of the service and allow it to better serve the members
1:03:55
thanks for having me here today and look forward to your questions thank you Dr glasman and finally uh Dr Hart you are recognized for five minutes for opening statement thank you as someone who spent most of their career in the executive
1:04:08
branch I'm happy to say I know what CRS is uh so thank you for the invitation to join today's hearing as you noted I lead the data Foundation which is a nonpartisan National nonprofit that works to improve government business and
1:04:21
Society through open data and evidence informed policy and I'm really pleased to be here to share perspectives about the use of data and evidence to support Congress uh I get to zoom out a bit because Congress needs data it's
1:04:34
actively using evidence and really always has as the world country and Congress change Congress really needs to review as an institution whether it's actually receiving the right kinds of data and evidence to support effective oversight and decision making
1:04:50
importantly our value systems are actually part of how each of uh you is members represent the values in our Democratic Republic and that's actually vital to decision-making and our success as a country that's a very important
1:05:03
input that we should not miss but evidence must have a seat at the table and it must be a key seat and Congress as an institution needs to have procedures and processes to access what members and staff actually need to fulfill effective legislative and
1:05:18
oversight functions so in a sense we are aspiring to align the best available evidence in decision making for the legislative process so ensuring Congress has the data and evidence it needs at the right time and in the right format
1:05:32
for decisions requires planning and coordination and even a sense of humility about what we want and need to know evidence helps determine as Mr Kilmer was alluding to whether how when where and for whom policies work and
1:05:48
also helps describe the conditions and solutions that we want we've seen lots of bipartisan examples over the years I alluded to some in my written statement including things like the bipartisan negotiations that achiev uh solvency for
1:06:02
the Social Security Disability trust fund back in 2015 along with major reforms for the program we're talking right now about the child tax credit expansions and improved evaluations for tax expenditures a major point of
1:06:15
discussion that we desperately need we know from the CTC that it has impacts on reducing child poverty using evidence should be easy for decision makers and not challenged by institutional processes and barriers to access this is
1:06:30
why I strongly endorse the Congressional evidencebased policymaking commission resolution a mouthful uh a broader cohort of the data and evidence Community will also agree with this establishing this commission is a lowcost rapid mechanism for addressing
1:06:44
the question of how Congress can establish capacity process and procedure to better use data and evidence there are so many resources today that already exist to do this and the question is how can we better achieve this goal through
1:07:00
Congressional support agencies and executive branch agencies a prior evidence commission back in 2017 established by then speaker Paul Ryan and Senator Patty Murray focused on ways to drastically improve executive branch
1:07:14
capabilities through data infrastructure and evidence capacity they achieved unanimous recommendations because of the Ryan Murray commission and those unanimous recommendations Congress passed The Evidence Act the foundations
1:07:27
for evidence-based policymaking act it includes Congressman Kilmer's open government open government data act and Congress later passed the national secure data service Authority the Ryan Murray commission directly led to an
1:07:40
improved understanding of what evidence is establish new leadership roles like the chief data officers and evaluation officers to coordinate with senior leaders new data strategies and data governance and agencies new data sharing
1:07:51
projects and evaluation Advanced Data governance uh with privacy improvements and planning for evidence through learning agendas resulted in om defining evaluation as a core function of government there's even an expectation
1:08:02
of open data by default in the executive branch this is a lot and all of that happened over the last five years but did not necessarily align with the Congressional support function and the timing of decisions in Congress so that
1:08:16
means there's a lot to think about for this institution and in Congress Congress still needs to think about its capacity and what infrastructure it needs noting the 50 years uh 50-year old design and gaps that currently exist
1:08:30
should Congress have a CDO like it mandated for executive branch agencies how do we uh think about CRS data access noting that the executive branch is building out a standard access portal for data access uh how do we think about
1:08:42
engagement and transparency there are so many other issues that a congressionally focused commission can think about the commission offers an opportunity to support members and Congressional staff in the Endeavor to produce and encourage
1:08:55
good policy outcomes for the American people Congress needs a coherent depoliticized discussion about the process and accountability of evidence specifically what it wants to function better as an institution and using
1:09:07
knowledge starting with the question I encourage members to advance this Congressional evidence commission to support this discussion and planning for ways to strengthen Congress in the years ahead thank you thank you Dr Hart and ranking member
1:09:21
Kilmer is uh as we often are floting between committees right now so he will return shortly um we'll start with questions myself first and then we'll um try to move around um first of all thank you all again for being here uh this
1:09:36
morning SL afternoon we appreciate your time and I want to start you mentioned something towards the end of your testimony that I think ties in perfectly with the question I have uh here and I'm opening up to to everyone in the witness
1:09:47
panel and that is Dr Hart um your testimony calls for depoliticized discussion of how Congress can use evidence to better function as an institution using the knowledge being gained um certainly that is a very admirable goal but how do you get around
1:10:03
the fact that data can be used to promote sort of partisan aims and how can we be certain that the data being presented isn't biased especially when both sides point to data in these policy debates so a major component of this is
1:10:17
thinking about how we transparently share the information and evidence that we're using and this is actually one of the pillars of the evidence commission the Ryan Murray commission when we talked about evidence-based policymaking
1:10:30
transparency was one of the Five Pillars and in the executive branch this is something that we have encouraged promoted as we are talking about sharing more information from the American public it is one of the reasons that we
1:10:42
promote openness of data and it is not to say that we will never have uh different views about what data mean and what data analysis means uh but the more that we are able to share and have open and honest dialogues about the
1:10:58
information that is in front of us the more we can have an productive discussion about what problems are really there and how to solve them so this is one of the reasons that the open government data Act is such a powerful
1:11:12
piece of legislation that should be something that Congress is interested in providing oversight of and we should be moving forward with it's it is a topic in front of us thank you um Miss Bean you mentioned in your testimony the 65 reports that
1:11:29
are done annually by CRS um that provide an I think incredible amount of information to us and I it's one of the things I think is maybe most overlooked uh as members and staff that these reports are done and are out there for
1:11:42
our viewing pleasure um but also to gain insight for my question do you really um revolves around why do support agencies have uh their data Access Data access authorities is detailed in statute well I think there are two
1:12:00
reasons first um We're a nation of laws and so it is very helpful for an agency to have a very clear strong law that it can point to that enables it to get the information that Congress needs so I think that's sort of one reasons it's
1:12:16
important to have that that kind of statutory Foundation uh another reason is that Congress you know needs information for virtually all all of the things that it does whether it's enacting legislation spending taxpayer dollars um overseeing the executive
1:12:33
branch it needs that information and so we want to provide that strong Foundation uh for its support agencies to act as those Force multipliers to help the staffs that have limited resources and limited time get the information they need excellent and Dr
1:12:50
glasman uh understanding that you were actually at CRS uh a while ago um my question to you is maybe a little more Technical and that is do confidentiality agreements between analysts and their Congressional clients prevent analysts from sharing those raw
1:13:06
data sets that they may be given by the executive branch so you mean confidentiality between an analyst like myself and a congressional requestor such as you correct so you know confidentiality at CRS is is airtight between CRS the agency and and the
1:13:21
office of the member of the staff requesting and so I always thought about it as that was the Baseline I would never tell anyone outside the office I was working for or CRS was going on I would certainly talk to other analysts
1:13:32
and ask them to help me on something uh and unless the requestor specifically said don't talk to anyone else in my office I would think it would be sort of fair game to to talk with someone in their office in terms of data coming
1:13:41
from the executive branch when I had it I never used it in terms of handing over raw data sets um in fact often when I was dealing with the executive branch that would be the one condition they would want on the data I would say well
1:13:54
we'll give it to you but you're just using this to write a report with analysis right and I would say yes and then I would do that and then I would have the data and I would continue to use it for that purpose but I would
1:14:02
never transfer sort of large scale data to Congress and I think I would probably be very wary of doing that without sort of getting my supervisor involved or discussing it further with the agency or the requestor now I often wrote Things
1:14:15
analysis pieces that were confidential to members who I then went back later and said hey I have another client who might be interested in similar things to this is it okay if I share that with them um and so that happened routinely I
1:14:25
almost never had anyone say no to that uh so I I would think that that would be how I would handle these sort of data things um but you know I think it's understandable if you're taking massive raw data sets from the executive branch
1:14:36
agencies that they're going to be concerned about this and I think I would be too and I think for um for many looking at this issue they want to make sure that um that information may not be shared specifically or directly with um
1:14:48
you know either uh uh members or staff but still the information that's provided there within is is given uh to you all and then you all can sort of translate that put it into those papers and provide us the data that we're
1:15:00
asking for so yeah perfect thank you for that um since Mr Kilmer has not uh returned yet I'm going to um move over to Mr Carrie for five minutes of questioning well and I I appreciate that uh chairwoman um you know uh one of the
1:15:14
things that um it's it's interesting is being former staff um and Miss Bean you you worked for Senator Levan for a number of years 30 years yeah see you know that's where AI should do a better job uh when they ask the questions
1:15:31
because they said Decades of experience I wouldn't have gone there um but but I just uh as somebody who watched his career I mean everybody knows about his service on the armed service committee and all the things that he did but uh
1:15:47
truly was a champion for pensions and health care for retirees um a rare gift these days so glad you're continuing his legacy so um with your Decades of experience and oversight managing can you lay out for us a straightforward
1:16:04
terms what Congress is legally entitled to obtain from the executive branch and I know you worked on this with agencies and departments well the Supreme Court the Supreme Court has been very clear that as long as Congress has a
1:16:20
legislative purpose Congress has broad authority to obtain information the Supreme Court first affirmed congress's authority to conduct oversight of the executive branch nearly a hundred years ago in mcgrain versus D
1:16:34
Dary and it reaffirmed that Authority in 2020 in the Mazar case and so here are some direct quotes from the Supreme Court in mazars quote con congressional power to obtain information is Broad and indispensable end quote quote it is the
1:16:51
proper duty of a representative body to look diligently into every Affair of government endend quote quote unless Congress have and use every means of acquainting itself with the acts and disposition of the administrative agents
1:17:05
of the government the country must be helpless to learn how it is being served end quote so the Supreme Court couldn't have been more clear about congress's right to obtain information for a legislative purpose from the executive
1:17:19
branch and that includes when Congress is enacting legislation overseeing the executive branch and it includes uh information requests from its support agencies since the only reason they're asking is to assist Congress let me go into that um given
1:17:37
the reality of the executive um executive legislative relations do you think that changing crs's statute would would make a difference I do uh I mentioned before that we're a nation of laws and one of the first things executive branch agencies like to know
1:17:54
is is well what's your legislative Authority what's your statutory Authority and so having uh that strong clear statute would make a difference a strong Congress needs a strong CRS operating under strong statutory Authority I can't remember whether it
1:18:10
was you DR glasman or Dr Harton reading your bios I know we have a real uh we have a very educated um body that that we're asking questions to but um what is it what is it that we can do as members of Congress that can help you you know
1:18:30
to help CRS be help the agencies understand the role of CRS because that's you know I mean I you get young staff that comes in um and whether it's you know here in the capital or whether it's in an agency and they just don't
1:18:44
really understand the role um what could we be doing I'm going to go to you Dr glasman um what could we do better as a Congress to make sure the agencies Know Your Role sure I mean I think you know one of the the the biggest frustrations
1:19:01
I would have that I would often have with with staffers when we were both working on something together was that the agencies didn't see CRS as an extension of say committee staff right and and making sure the agencies knew
1:19:12
that when CRS was requesting something it was no different than if a committee staffer was requesting something at least bringing it up on that plane uh would be extremely helpful and in part because you know there were a fair
1:19:23
amount of times I would have request where working with a committee staffer and the reason I was requesting the data is because they wanted to remain anonymous and they didn't want the agency to know that this committee was
1:19:31
looking at this or that they were looking at this and I would go to the agency and they would sort of just you know not answer my thing and I go back to the staff room be like can you call and they'd be you know they their head
1:19:41
you know they throw their hands up in the air because that was exactly what they didn't want to do and so making sure that the agencies know that CRS should be treated as the equivalent of committee staff when they're dealing
1:19:50
with Ledger Fair shops or when they're dealing with program managers would be great I can imagine writing lines in committee reports and Appropriations bills just reminding them of that right when they get their funding um and uh
1:20:01
yeah that that would be the most beneficial thing I I think perfect M I go to Dr Hart I mean same same type of question what do you what do you think that we could be doing um a better job of as members of Congress to make sure
1:20:12
the agencies understand the role of CRS so I I I think there's a lot actually that sort of fits in this conversation about the access of of CRS to Executive Branch data uh including some very important privacy discourse so uh CRS does not necessarily need
1:20:32
unfettered access to executive branch information so for example the Census Bureau collects a lot of information from the American public that we place very important privacy protections on we're not necessarily talking about CRS
1:20:45
getting access to the confidential records of the Census Bureau we're we're having a conversation about aggregate information I think is largely what CRS is looking for for and ensuring that aggregated uh administrative records uh
1:20:59
so I I think there's an important starting point that CRS is going to need to understand about what it actually needs then there's a second level of this about the executive branch has an expectation of transparency in
1:21:11
communicating when it's using data CRS doesn't have that same expectation you're just talking a little bit about a veil of secrecy in a sense between the communications that CRS has with members however when we talk about evidence
1:21:26
production in the executive branch we're often encouraging transparency I think we're going to have to reconcile that Congress actually told the executive branch agencies to have more transparency as it's producing evidence that to me seems like a bit of
1:21:39
a conflict so I think if CRS is going to have this legislation move forward that communication maybe this is part of the information campaign that you're describing we'll have to figure that out thank you listen I think I I think the
1:21:53
witnesses and I think the chair woman for being indulgent with her time and with that I yield back thank you Mr car and at this time I recognize ranking member Kilmer thanks Madam chair first I want to speak in support of the committee
1:22:06
deconfliction tool which um my clone did not arrive at work today second uh so first I wanted to um ask Dr Hart you know for folks who maybe um AR are less familiar with the history of the US Commission on evidence-based policym and
1:22:24
the work it did just hoping You' share a little bit about the nuts and bolts of how the commission was staffed how its agenda was set what it did on a day to b day basis you know assuming the work was driven by trying to arrive at a set of
1:22:36
recommendations where there you know predetermined categories um or areas of jurisdiction that the Comm commission used as guide posts were there competing priorities and how were uh how were those resolved um yeah so the the evidence
1:22:53
commission from Murray uh had about 18 months to do its work uh it was a very fast timeline and was charged with essentially studying the whole of government the whole of the executive branch and its initial charge was to
1:23:06
answer a question about whether there should be a clearing house for data in the executive branch uh that was a pretty wicked question in essence uh the answer was very quickly no by the way um it had a staff of 10 so it was not a
1:23:22
large staff largely came from executive Branch agencies and 15 politically appointed members five of which were appointed for their expertise and privacy uh which was very important in the final recommendation formulation uh so in addition to the
1:23:36
focus on that data Clearing House question it had priorities that were very specifically around data access the theme of uh much of the conversation around CRS uh privacy protections and the capacity of the executive branch to
1:23:50
actually do this work so all of the recommendations from that Ryan Murray Commission essentially focused on those priorities the way that the commission converged on those priorities I think was something that's actually very
1:24:02
relevant to a congressional evidence commission uh some of it came from the members the the sponsors and in the very first meeting of the commission the staff of those members presented and had some conversation with the members but
1:24:16
all of the individual members went around the table and said what one of their priorities was so I still remember the co-chair uh Ron H Haskins uh for way and mean staffer said if I get nothing else from this commission I want there
1:24:28
to be Chief evaluation officers in government and by God that was one of the recommendations of the commission uh so one of the reasons that we have an evaluation function in government today that's cross government is largely a
1:24:39
credit to Ron H Haskins so uh I would say it was a very non-controversial commission behind the scenes the members really collaborated uh much a testament to good leadership from the chair Katherine Abraham and the co-chair Ron H Haskins
1:24:55
but also to a very Savvy executive director Shelley Martinez who knew a lot about the functioning of government she came from uh the federal statistical system over uh in the leadership office at om uh so the good leadership uh Savvy
1:25:10
first meeting some good planning uh but it was a very efficient and fast mechanism to get to recommendations you know one of the issues that the minorization committee looked at was just Congressional capacity and so one one of the things I
1:25:25
sort of grapple with is if Congress if the institution were to have better access to data and evidence does the institution have the capacity to actually use it and to incorporate it are members in their offices sufficiently trained in how to um
1:25:40
actually use evidence for the purposes of public policymaking so I'd love to get your take on that and if you don't think we have the capacity what do we do to develop that capacity within the institution I'll just say that I do
1:25:54
think Congress has the capacity to use it but I think it depends on how it's set up so for example if you had an evidence-based policy commission perhaps they could work on developing what I would call oversight dashboards for each
1:26:09
committee so each committee would decide what is the information that they want that would help them to do effective oversight so for example you might say for this agent the the several agencies that we oversee improp payments what's
1:26:25
the information out there on that uh what are key lawsuits uh maybe what are the high risks identified by GAO there's all kinds of ways to avoid getting biased information by using entities like GAO or IGS or something like that and a way to focus so you're
1:26:44
not going to get everything about an agency but what are the things that we would want uh that would help us do evidence-based policym so I think that's way you're going to have to set priorities you're going to have to focus
1:26:57
but yes I think uh committees would love to have an oversight dashboard that gave them certain kinds of information in a very easy way to access and digest anybody else want to swing at that pitch or sh you'll back yeah I mean I think that I think
1:27:16
everyone's concerned about sort of congressional capacity generally here we've had two broad periods of expansion of congressional capacity in the 40s and then again in 1970 each followed a major expansion of the executive branch we've
1:27:28
had a third major ex expansion of the executive branch after 911 in the last 20 years and we've had no sort of corresponding increase from Congress and you can see this from a CRS perspective the number of acest have exploded the
1:27:39
population's getting bigger there's more and more constituents communicating with Congress and the number of staffers in those house offices remains at 18 um and so I think there's no doubt this is a challenge in regard to data from from my
1:27:50
perspective at CRS I I don't really Envision a world where CRS had unfettered access to executive branch data which I don't necessarily think should be the case where CRS analysts would be sort of like digging through personally identified information or
1:28:02
grabbing terabytes of data from the Census Bureau and doing that um in my experience getting data from the executive master was almost always an on demand sort of thing from Congress um there were anticipatory reports I wrote
1:28:14
where I needed some data from the executive branch but that was not where sort of the bottlenecks were the bottlenecks were when I was responding to specific requests from specific requesters for timely things um and so
1:28:25
I'm not wholly concerned about sort of a flood of data coming in if CRS were given sort of expanded data authorities in that sense and having the capacity to deal with that um that said uh the broader issue of having a uh capable
1:28:38
legislative branch that can handle sort of the modern responsibilities of this incredibly complex policymaking requires increased capacity not only of its Workforce but of the training and tools to use the data that's now out there
1:28:51
thanks I will mention we the miniz committee does have a recommendation to increase the staff cap too parking yeah parking is an issue for that um certainly I I would also just throw out there um ranking member kelmer and I have also been working on a
1:29:10
provision that would allow for um uh itemized at uh what am I trying to say here anonymized casework data so that we can actually see um almost real time what's happening for a case workk standpoint and I use the example of uh
1:29:27
the issues with passports certainly after uh covid people wanted to travel again and all of our offices were absolutely bludgeoned with people's uh requests for new passports because many and often times their passports had
1:29:41
expired and they were rushing to try to get new passports had we known that that was coming we would have been able to maybe prepare accordingly or differently and so that um sort of provision I think could be helpful in trying to address
1:29:53
some of the concerns um Mr Kilmer any additional questions for you back thanks fantastic well again I want to thank uh our second panel of witnesses for being with us today the members of the subcommittee may have additional
1:30:06
questions for you and uh we ask that you would please respond to those questions in writing should they be sent your way and if there is no further business to be had I thank the members for the participation and without objection the subcommittee stands
1:30:19
adjourned thanks um Madam chair um