0:00:00

four this fundamental confusion is shocking let me be clear the Department of Defense cannot clearly explain to Congress and the American people the rationale for developing these weapons for the past four years at the cost of $15

0:00:18

billion and is now asking for an additional $3 billion for the 2025 budget I mean I'm curious if ever before in the history of the Pentagon we spent billions developing a weapon we don't know how to use absent any plans from the Pentagon

0:00:35

some generals and Admirals in your seats here have tried to answer this most basic question by saying that hypersonics will be a strategic deterrent yet there's no plan to arm them with strategic warheads and is the hope that we never use them that doesn't

0:00:49

seem consistent with what we've heard others have implied they will serve as Next Generation cruise missiles harder to counter than our ubiquitous tomahawks such an answer seems to me both simple and un believable and yet apparently

0:01:02

this is not true because I can't imagine it would take 5 years to provide a four-word answer others have said that we need them simply because our adversaries have them well there are plenty of weapons our adversaries are developing that we

0:01:13

are not for good reason Russia's recently leaked space weapon comes to mind I saw carrier pigeons employed in Iraq not long ago I assume we're not developing them too being unable to answer this alarmingly simple question

0:01:29

how will we use hypersonics May expose an even greater concern that we are developing a weapon that is seriously destabilizing a weapon that will ultimately make us and the world less safe and secure this would be notably in

0:01:42

contrast to the rest of our nuclear Triad sure I wish we didn't have to have intercontinental ballistic missiles but I support investing in them because they provide strategic stability and have been a Cornerstone of that strategic

0:01:57

stability for decades as our exper experience with Russia has proven but if a nation us or them cannot tell whether an inbound Hypersonic missile is a strategic nuclear weapon or not or simply where it is aimed that Nation

0:02:11

could feel compelled to launch a nuclear response and nuclear Holocaust could be the result obviously we need answers the bottom line is that we have a lot of work to do and I hope today today's hearing will for the first time help

0:02:24

answer some of these fundamental questions to give us better insight into whether developing hypersonic weapons will make us safer or whether they will prove to be an epic multi-billion dollar mistake that hopefully doesn't inadvertently spark a nuclear

0:02:41

Holocaust well I hope the ranking member asked the right questions to get to the bottom of the issues that he's having trouble with so you'll have that opportunity here soon I'll make an editorial comment right now and say that I believe it's

0:02:55

destabilizing for China and Russia to have a major capability that we do not have and that there are problem sets and Target sets that can only be addressed through this capability so that's that's the kind of thing we should have a good

0:03:10

debate and discussion during this important hearing today we will now turn to our Witnesses your prepared statements will be made part of the record since we have such a full house I will ask each of you to please limit

0:03:22

your opening comments to four minutes we have a very distinguished panel and we'll start with Dr Horwitz your recogniz first thank you uh chairman L lambard ranking member Molton members of the subcommittee uh thank you for the

0:03:38

opportunity to speak with you today I'm honored to be here to speak about the Department's policy regarding Hypersonic weapons the 2022 National defense strategy outlines four core priorities and serves as our North Star defending

0:03:51

the Homeland pce to the multi-domain threat posed by the People's Republic of China deterring strategic attacks against the United States our allly and partners deterring aggression while being prepared to Prevail in Conflict

0:04:04

when necessary and building a resilient Joint Force and defense ecosystem us development of hypersonic systems supports integrated deterrents against the priority challenges identified in the National defense strategy the department continues to focus on

0:04:19

developing conventionally armed systems that can contribute to longrange strike within a designated theater area of responsibility the Department's offensive Hypersonic weapons development is driven by a need to provide a full

0:04:33

range of options to senior decision makers hypersonics are a key component in the mix of capabilities that the Joint Force needs to deter and if necessary defeat aggression We are continuing to invest in and accelerate the delivery of these capabilities to

0:04:49

the war fighter more broadly the department is also making substantial investments in a range of conventionally armed offensive hypersonics from the air to undersea this is critical to enhancing deterrence it's also important for the

0:05:04

Department to continue developing capabilities to defend against Hypersonic threats the department is continuing its efforts to develop active and passive defenses against Regional Hypersonic missile threats and to pursue a persistent and resilient sensor

0:05:18

Network to characterize and track Hypersonic threats improve attribution and enable engagement in conclusion DOD is focusing on Fielding the right mix of capabilities to generate the effects that we need to deter and if necessary

0:05:35

Prevail in any conflict hypersonics because of their characteristics represent a key element in this mix of capabilities delivering those capabilities in concert with a network of allies and partners and in parallel with other Advanced Technologies and new

0:05:52

operating concepts for the force as a whole will ensure that DOD maintains the ability to deter potential adversaries and to defeat aggression if necessary thank you thank you uh Dr Weber chairman L Lamborn ranking member Molton and

0:06:09

distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for inviting us to provide testimony before the house armed services committee subcommittee on strategic forces hearing on us and adversary Hypersonic programs I serve as

0:06:19

the principal director for hypersonics and the office of the under secretary of defense for research and Engineering I'm also happy to introduce my research and Engineering colleague to my left Mr George Rumford the director of the test

0:06:29

resource Management Center today we are here because the United States faces unprecedented challenges in National Security the PRC and Russia have deployed high-end defensive and anti- access systems that will challenge our

0:06:40

ability to deter adversaries and defend US forces allies and partners against rapid military interventions to address these challenges the Department of Defense is accelerating the development and delivery of hypersonic systems that

0:06:51

provide responsive survivable and lethal capabilities to our Warf fighter our strategic approach to delivering these capabilities is focused on four priorities first demonstrate and transition Hypersonic systems through

0:07:02

Rapid design build test and learn Cycles second reduce the cost of hypersonic systems and increase industrial capability to build war fighting inventories third grow and sustain our critical enablers to accelerate the development of current and future

0:07:15

Hypersonic systems these enablers are test and evaluation Science and Technology Workforce Development and Allied Partnerships fourth identify develop and demonstrate Next Generation capabilities thanks to the resources

0:07:27

Congress has provided the department has developed veling a range of hypersonic and counter Hypersonic capabilities for our war Fighters that will hold time critical and heavily defended targets at risk from survivable standoff range and

0:07:37

defend the US Homeland War Fighters abroad allies and partners against adversary Hypersonic threats consistent with the direction in the FY 2017 National Defense authorization act the department is taking risks pressing the

0:07:49

technology envelope and increasing test and experimentation to accelerate the development of hypersonic Technologies and systems the department is using the middle tier acquisition authorities provided by Congress to streamline

0:07:59

accelerate the development of five Hypersonic strike weapon prototypes three programs including the Air Force Air launch rapid response weapon the Army longrange Hypersonic weapon and the Navy conventional prompt strike system

0:08:10

have already reached flight tests in less than four years and we were positioned for the United States to field Hypersonic weapon capabilities by the mid 2020s the department is also accelerating our development of hypersonic systems and capabilities by

0:08:21

making significant Investments to increase our ground and flight test infrastructure our domestic manufacturing capabilities and industrial supply chain and scientist engineering and technician Workforce in closing our nation is now

0:08:33

at the threshold of delivering Hypersonic systems that will provide transformational capabilities for detering and defending against future aggression however we must maintain our national commitment to this goal to be successful we appreciate congress's

0:08:45

support to us hypersonics development and with your continued help we will fill the Hypersonic and counter Hypersonic capabilities the nation needs thank you for having us here today to discuss this critical effort and we look forward to your

0:08:58

questions thank you thank you vice admiral wolf chairman Lamor ranking member Molton and distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to discuss the Navy strategic systems programs conventional

0:09:09

prompt strike Hypersonic weapon known as CPS the Navy and army are partnered to execute the CPS and longrange Hypersonic weapon programs through the use of a common Hypersonic missile which consists of a two-stage missile booster designed

0:09:24

developed and produced by the Navy as well as a common Hypersonic Glide body designed and developed by the Navy and produced by the Army the CPS and lrhw programs have pursued an aggressive schedule to develop a common Hypersonic

0:09:38

weapon that will be the Army and Navy's first by leveraging joint developmental test opportunities the programs have marked significant testing milestones at a consistent Pace including a March 2020 flight test that demonstrated our common

0:09:52

Hypersonic Glide body technology is mature and a 2022 flight test that provided vital data on the performance of our newly developed missile booster although CPS and rhw successfully initiated the first flight test of the

0:10:06

newly developed weapons system less than four years after the initiation of the programs recent tests were not completed as expected in each case the Navy Army government national team and our contractors has rapidly reacted to

0:10:21

identify root causes complete corrective actions and expeditiously return to the range additionally our programs have initiated an additional series of design reviews and have planned additional testing opportunities to restore

0:10:35

technical confidence achieve critical knowledge points and further reduce risk on the path of Fielding as a complement to our planned full weapon system flight test the programs continue to utilize the multi-service advanced capability

0:10:50

hypersonics test bed known as mock TB the mock TV program was created in 2022 by CPS and the naval Warfare Center crane Indiana leveraging a generous Congressional appropriation increase we have now turned the effort over to os's test

0:11:06

Resource Management Center allowing CPS lrhw and the entire hypersonics Enterprise to utilize commercial launch platforms for subcomponent subscale and full scale tests to increase the rate of testing at a reduced cost meanwhile our

0:11:23

Hypersonic industry partners are working diligently with the government national team to facilitate a rapid transition to production platform integration and delivery to the warf fighter we continue to prioritize improved affordability of

0:11:36

the weapon system through initiatives to reduce material costs including leveraging additive manufacturing and other new production processes in order to deliver this capability of the speed of relevance the Army and Navy teams

0:11:49

will continue to work closely with our industry Partners OSD and Congress to identify supply chain issues and put mitigation plans in place the Navy continues to prepare for the filling of CPS on both the zalk class destroyers

0:12:04

and the block five Virginia payload module equipped submarines testing at our inair launch test facility has continued to refine the coal gas launch approach the Navy will use to launch the common Hypersonic missile from both ourc

0:12:18

platforms the CPS Fielding on zalk class destroyers will Mark the first use of this cold gas launch approach on a Surface ship platform construction and outfitting of the underwater launch test facility continues and that will allow

0:12:30

the program to evaluate how the CPS missile transits through the water using the newly developed CPS launcher we've conducted a series of exercises that allow our Sailors to execute scenarios in an operationally relevant environment

0:12:44

and have deployed a weapon system prototype and missile simulator on a zalk class destroyer the ship took that equipment to see and we validated that we can demonstrate employment Concepts and command and control following tasking by any combatant command

0:12:59

I'd like to thank Congress for the support you have shown our program and the important Focus that you have placed on this essential capability as the four in director it is my honor to represent the Personnel of SSP CPS program one of

0:13:12

my top priorities is to ensure that these dedicated Americans are poised to execute the conventional prompt strike Mission with the same level of success passion and rigor as we have since SSP was founded thank you for the

0:13:26

opportunity to testify today on behalf of the team that will provide our nation with a credible and reliable intermediate range Hypersonic strike capability thank you thank you Admiral Lieutenant General rash chairman lamorn ranking member

0:13:42

Molton and distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for allowing me here today to represent the Army uh to discuss the ongoing development of the longrange Hypersonic weapon alongside my colleagues and other services and in the

0:13:54

office of Secretary of Defense and on behalf of the army senior leadership we thank you for your continued support of our soldiers our civilians and their families the responsiveness and survivability of hypersonic weapons is

0:14:07

unmatched by traditional ballistic capabilities for precision targeting especially in anti- Access area denial environments the department made the decision to pursue these systems because these weapons provide the United States

0:14:20

with a suite of options to strike strategic targets my goal as a material developer is to help ensure the United States military can successfully and if necessarily defeat and fight our nation's Wars the Army task the rapid

0:14:35

capabilities and critical Technologies office with developing the longrange Hypersonic weapon on an aggressive timeline the Army and Navy are closely closely partnered in this endeavor the Navy's conventional prompt strike program and the Army's long-range

0:14:49

Hypersonic weapon program share key components such as a common missile booster stack the use of a common Hypersonic Glide body and of aligned developmental eort efforts and resources and these commonalities have supported an emerging industrial base in

0:15:04

maintaining aggressive development and Fielding schedules in addition to this partnership both the Army and the Navy have benefited significantly from the work at government labs and with a considerable support from OSD to help

0:15:16

ensure this capability gets delivered throughout 2023 the Army and Navy conducted three iterations of joint flight campaign 2 while those tests did not go as planned the Army and Navy teams learned from each of these and

0:15:31

worked with industry to make necessary corrective actions to return to the range for further testing following the third attempt both programs work together to establish multiple lines of effort to conduct a series of design

0:15:42

reviews across the weapon system in close partnership with the Navy we are pursuing a rigorous test regimen to reduce risk before returning back to flight test this regimen will ensure incremental success at the subsystem

0:15:55

level making necessary adjustments and demonstrating repeated SU success allowing us to return to flight test with unwavering confidence above all I am confident that our team will do what is necessary with appropriate rigor to

0:16:08

deliver this system to our soldiers I am so proud to be part of this team and an immensely and am immensely grateful for the significant time and energy that our Collective teams have poured into supporting this Mission we appreciate

0:16:21

the support we have received for these programs from Congress and from this committee your your support and receptiveness to our efforts is Paramount to Our Success success and I look forward to taking your questions thank you thank you lieutenant general

0:16:33

white chairman lambor ringing member molon and distinguished members of the subcommittee thank you for the opportunity to provide testimony on the department of the Air Force's Hypersonic programs our continued efforts to develop and field an operational

0:16:48

Hypersonic air launch weapon will enable us to hold high value time sensitive targets at risk in contested environments from standoff distances a Hypersonic weapon in concert with a wider weapons Force mix is key to providing a whinning Air Force the Air

0:17:04

Force's Hypersonic portfolio consists of three major thrusts boost Glide missiles air breathing cruise missiles and the foundational Science and Technology S&T hypersonics portfolio starting with arrow our boost Glide missile is the air launched rapid

0:17:20

response weapon we are undergoing the final test of the all up round with a planned test program completion by the end of second quarter fiscal year 24 this test will launch a full prototype of the operational Hypersonic

0:17:34

missile and is focused on the arrows endtoend performance while future Arrow decisions are pending final analysis of all flight test data the service is pleased to report that the Aero rapid prototyping program has been a categorical success to

0:17:49

date next hackam our air breathing cruise missile is the Hypersonic attack cruise missile it is an air launched air breathing weapon that can be integrated on current and future Fighters as well as provide expanded capacity on bombers

0:18:04

the Air Force awarded the hackam contract in September of 2022 and is developing the weapon using the middle tier acquisition rapid prototyping Authority we are working to mature hackam to critical design along with other development activities to enable

0:18:19

the flight test activities in fiscal year 2025 science and technology in collaboration with the wider hypersonics community our foundational Science and Technology hypersonics portfolio is executed by the Air Force research

0:18:33

laboratory afrl has made many enduring contributions contributions to the field of hypersonics to date they achieved significant successes with their recently completed high-speed strike weapon technology maturation program

0:18:47

this program transitioned over 30 Technologies to various DOD Hypersonic programs ranging from Advanced Materials to propulsion Technologies to vehicle designs based on these successes we look forward to the launch of techm 2 to

0:19:02

further develop and transition Technologies for Next Generation Hypersonic capabilities in fiscal year 2025 the focus of Air Force research laboratory technology development efforts will shift to less mature technologies that are needed to develop

0:19:17

future reusable Hypersonic platforms which will provide multi-mission intelligence surveillance and reconnaissance as well as strike capabilities I thank you again for the opportunity to testify and provide additional details in the class in the

0:19:31

classified session later today and I look forward to your questions thank you Mr mccor chairman Lamborn ranking member Molton and members of the subcommittee thank you for the invitation to provide the defense intelligence Enterprise

0:19:46

assessment of China's and Russia's Hypersonic Weapons Systems I'm a senior intelligence analyst with the National Air and Space Intelligence Center here on behalf of Dia our competitors are developing Advanced weapon capabilities

0:19:57

aimed at holding us forward deployed forces and the Homeland at risk Hypersonic weapons are designed to evade us sensors and defensive systems and they provide adversary military commanders with unique capabilities these weapons pose an

0:20:11

increasing and complex threat due to availability of both nuclear and conventional capabilities us competitors are developing multiple configurations and types of hypersonic missiles that can be tailored for employment from Air

0:20:22

ground and sea launchers both China and Russia have conducted numerous successful tests of hypersonic weapons and fielded operational capabilities Russia has used these against Ukraine but China is ahead of Russia in support

0:20:35

infrastructure and total inventory China's missile programs are comparable to top tier producers internationally and China leads Russia with its Hypersonic Arsenal China's progress is resulting from its efforts over the past

0:20:48

two decades to dramatically Advance its capability in conventional and nuclear armed Hypersonic missile Technologies this has been done through intense and focused investment development testing and now deliveries to the pla China has an extensive and

0:21:03

robust research and development infrastructure and PRC researchers have claimed these facilities help expose critical engineering and Technology issues before missiles are tested China is also expanding Research into reusable high-speed Vehicles China

0:21:18

has demonstrated a high pace of flight testing for its Hypersonic systems this emphasis is enabling China to deploy weapons including the df7 uh that has an estimated range of at least at least 1,600 km enabling it to reach US military basing and Fleet

0:21:32

Assets in Western Pacific since 2014 China has conducted several tests in pursuit of an InterContinental range Hypersonic Glide vehicle uh China is pursuing this capability in part due to longterm concerns about us defenses and

0:21:46

a a desire for parity at the future worldwide missile capabilities China's investments will enable it to deploy large numbers of hypersonic weapons in lines with its plans for a strong and modernized rocket Force China also is

0:22:01

advancing Advanced high-speed engine or scram technologies that have applications in Hypersonic cruise missiles Russia has performed research on Hypersonic weapons Technologies since at least the 1980s and currently has

0:22:13

three deployed Hypersonic systems the first is the air launch kall it has a claimed top speed of mach 10 and over a reach of over 2,000 kilometers and Russia is used this extensively against Ukraine with varying degrees of success

0:22:26

and Effectiveness the other another weapon is the ss19 or avangard Hypersonic Glide vehicle Uh Russian officials claim this has uh capability to fly over mach 20 and a range of up to 10,500 km the third system the siron is

0:22:41

a ship launch Hypersonic missile that travels at speeds up the Mach 8 Ukraine reported recovering components of the siron indicating it has also been used operationally earlier this year and Russia has declared its intentions to

0:22:54

continue developing and deploying Hypersonic weapons including another air launch Hypersonic longrange missile called c95 my goal in this hearing is to help Congress and the nation better understand the threats that advanced

0:23:06

Hypersonic weapons posed to our Ford deployed forces and the Homeland the defense intelligence Enterprise aims to support the committee in identifying opportunities to respond to these C challenges thank you for your continued

0:23:18

confidence and we are grateful for your vital support okay thank you to the very distinguished panel Witnesses for each of your statements we'll now have one round of questions from the panel and then we'll go into our classified remainder of our hearing

0:23:33

upstairs um for both Dr Horwitz and Mr McCormick in the hands of the Chinese are Hypersonic weapons able to do something that none other of their weapons can do I can take that to start so uh China is very invested in Long Range strike

0:23:56

and precision strike capability they have looked at missiles for a a long time to to achieve their strategic goals and hypersonics is is really a continuation of of that commitment to a longrange missile Force for counter intervention and strategic nuclear

0:24:16

deterrence thanks so much uh I think that that's right the only thing I would add is that we have concern about the hypersonics being developed by the PRC uh and Russia giv the their potential for dual capable systems where there may

0:24:32

be ambiguity about whether a system is armed with a nuclear or conventional weapon those are the kinds of situations where the deployment of hypersonic weapons is more likely to have destabilizing effects during a crisis or

0:24:44

a conflict and that is also not a concern with the Hypersonic weapons that the United States is developing so is it your position that hypersonics have capabilities that no other weap have so they combine the benefits of

0:25:04

ballistic missiles which are high speed and cruise missiles which are maneuverable and so uh they they you you can get those effects with two different types of weapons but what they they really challenge our our uh sensing

0:25:18

capability uh and and our defensive capability and they do provide military commanders very rapid response uh capability um that that you wouldn't have necessarily with with other weapons and this is why we're pursuing

0:25:33

hypersonics in the first place the the combination of speed range and maneuverability means they have the potential to generate effects that in combination with the other capabilities That Joint Force is developing give us

0:25:45

the ability to deter aggression and if necessary prevailing conflict I think it's a straw man argument to say that we would pursue a type of weapon class only because the other side is doing it I think that there is a use for hypersonics in and of

0:26:03

themselves no matter whether anyone else is doing it or not and whether they're ahead of us or behind us would you both gentlemen agree with that statement I think that the the Department of Defense is well aware of Russia and the prc's activities in

0:26:20

hypersonics but the United States is not developing Hypersonic weapons to respond to Russian or Chinese development of hypersonic system we are developing you know hypersonics you know as you suggest because we think

0:26:32

that their development and deployment is necessary to enhance the capabilities of The Joint Force and our ability to implement the national defense strategy we think that the development of hypersonic systems will support

0:26:46

integrated deterrence against priority threats because of that intersection of speed maneuverability and range uh that they have it helps give senior decision makers uh the full range of options especially in a contested Battlefield

0:27:03

environment where an adversary is deployed uh anti- acccess area denial systems thank you Mr McCormick I I certainly can't speak to the US strategy it was say that that China used these as an extension of its desire for precision long range strike

0:27:20

and to also uh enhance the credibility of its its nuclear deterrence these are these are in line with strategies that's developed for uh icbms it's it's irbm mrbms and cruise missiles and so they extend that strategy okay thank you now

0:27:36

here's a question for General rash vice admiral wolf and Lieutenant General white can you talk about how your teams are working to overcome recent testing challenges and what problem is on your critical path thank you for the question

0:27:53

Congressman um since the three uh events this last year uh non-flight test activities uh the team has doubled down um during the time we've had available to uh to really take a deep dive look into some of the the system design

0:28:09

aspects while we're refitting uh missiles to get back out to the range so this has been a time for us uh both Army and Navy uh to develop some lines of effort where we do a complete system analysis ensuring that we've uh we

0:28:22

uncover any additional trouble spots other than what we found to date uh as well as um uh standing up in independent review team to actually come in and look over our shoulder to make sure we haven't missed something in the past and

0:28:33

we can go into more details on the the test activity during our Clos session VI wolf yes sir that's exactly right and as we work with the Army certainly what what general rash is doing on his side and what we're done on our side together

0:28:45

to understand um obviously both of these programs have been very fast-paced and we've really leaned into ranking member Molton point of understanding the risk that we were taken to try and get this capability out there rapidly um we some

0:28:58

hiccups and we're learning from that so we will to General rash's point we can talk about some additional testing we believe that we need to do to get some more confidence as we in parallel push this entire system forward so um again a

0:29:11

lot of these have been just understanding how we how we actually put this in the war fighter hands it's not necessarily a technology challenge it's a gramping up industry to produce these things reliably so that we can give them

0:29:22

to our war fighter thank you General white yeah I would say something similar Congressman that the challenge we've had some pretty good success some of our tests over the recent past and so I do think there is a part of this that is

0:29:34

learning many of these these programs as you know are somewhat from a born out of Science and Technology and so we continue to learn as we go through the process I think taking the time as uh um General Rashid pointed out taking the

0:29:45

time good system engineering and design and making sure we're taking into consideration as we have these programs because many of them are middle middle T Acquisitions and we're moving quickly with these Technologies so continue to

0:29:55

stay focused on that design and Engineering piece and then of course it's absolutely critically important that we continue to test thank you and Mr Rumford from your seat at trmc what is the biggest bottleneck right now when

0:30:06

it comes to Hypersonic testing and how are you working to address that so the two biggest uh bottlenecks and and thank you for that question it's it's it's the most important Focus that we have is improving our flight test

0:30:21

capacity and our ground test capacity we need both of those testing is essential to understanding how well these weapons work uh you can't think a weapon into existence but you can test a weapon into existence and so it's essential to kind

0:30:35

of understand how those weapons perform every capability that we've ever put in air or into space we've had ground test infrastructure that enables us to understand how well it works so we have significant Investments going on the

0:30:48

ground test side to better understand the Material Science and the propulsion systems and as well as improving our our high-speed test tracks and then on the white test side we have three major initiatives that are going to change our

0:31:02

posture in our nation one is the mock TB program that the Navy mentioned already which is really going to be able to improve our throughput of hypersonic tests secondly is a sky range program which is retrofitting UAV so we can test

0:31:16

hypersonics in more locations and then thirdly a corridor initiative to be able to have more long range corridors all of those couplings I think take on this challenge of how do we improve our ability to test for our nation very good

0:31:30

and lastly Dr Weber are you all at OSD using this delay as we work through the testing issues to make sure that the production capabilities will be there and that we'll be able to produce at scale when necessary uh thank you for the question

0:31:45

sir so certainly we are making significant investments in our industrial base so we are using our authorities and programs in manufacturing technology industrial based analysis and sustainment and defense production act title 3 to

0:31:56

improve our Manufacturing Technologies but also to improve our manufacturing capability and capacity with industry and to ensure that we have a resilient industry base thank you ranking member Molton thank you very much uh Mr

0:32:10

chairman I wasn't quite sure if you were going to call me ranking member or Mr straw man but uh ranking member look I support a lot of big weapons Investments uh in fact I've even been accused of being a defense Hawk which is not always

0:32:25

a compliment rarely a compliment in my party so look if you can answer some of these basic foundational questions with confidence questions I've been asking for three years now then you have every right and a very good chance of of

0:32:39

changing my mind but I'm asking these basic questions because I haven't been able to get simple answers to these simple questions now look a congressman recently decided to link leak the fact that Russia is developing a nuclear

0:32:51

space weapon uh Dr Horowitz do we have a plan to develop our own nuclear space weapon to the turis development here to talk we're here to talk about conventional hypersonics for yes my question is do we have a plan to develop

0:33:05

a nuclear space weapon to deter the Russians recently leaked development of such a weapon not as far as I know but I'm happy to take that for the record well I would love to see it for the record if the if the answer changes so

0:33:17

the point is that we don't plan to develop one just to deter a weapon because our adversary has it there are a lot of other examples of this for example we developed blinding lasers and we decide that that's probably not a

0:33:29

great thing to subject our infantry to so years ago we through diplomacy achieved an agreement that's been upheld even by our adversaries not to use blinding lasers on the battlefield in fact you could make you could say this

0:33:42

about just about every other major weapon system that has been cancelled since DOD established was established that even though our adversaries have some things we don't necessarily develop them ourselves and we know that's a long

0:33:54

list now the chairman said in his comments about my statement that hypersonics provide the only way to get to certain targets so gentlemen does that mean that there are targets today that we don't have the means to strike ameral

0:34:12

wolf sir that that's difficult to answer in an open form as we talked about um I'm prepared in the close session to walk you through at least from a Navy perspective some of the things that that went into our initial capability

0:34:25

document requirements and also went into the other requirements that we're developing our system specifically for so if I could take that question in the classified form I'd be happy to to go further into that sure okay that sounds

0:34:38

good I'll look forward to it Dr horo is the foundation of nuclear deterrence is through the concept of mutually assured destruction we know that if we launch a bunch of icbms from missile Fields out west that we can expect the exact same

0:34:50

thing in return and that's what's prevented either us or Russia from doing so Russia and China have been very clear that they are developing Hypersonic missiles as a strategic deterrent equipping them with nuclear weapons to

0:35:04

evade our homeland missile defense systems and this is why you said that adversar systems which are dual capable conventional or nuclear are strategically destabilizing and I want to emphasize the fact that you said that in your

0:35:18

testimony if we detected a salvo of hypersonics coming our way something we can't do today by the way but we're hopefully able to soon how would we respond we have established processes and procedures for how the department

0:35:35

would make that decision and whether whether the how and when the United States would respond and in what time frame would be a decision that uh senior military leaders or the president would make and happy to talk about that more

0:35:48

in the Clos session well let me just pause it that we've been very clear and very public about the fact that if we see a whole bunch of nuclear tipped icbms coming our way we're going to respond with the same thing and that's

0:35:58

what prevents Russia from doing it so I think we might want to consider being pretty public in saying if you have a whole bunch of hypersonics coming our way and a big Salvo like that we would have a similar response because that's how we deter it from

0:36:10

happening and if not we are in a strategically destabilizing situation so let me ask you this what will China do if they see a salvo of hypersonic missiles headed their way that they think might carry nuclear warheads so we think that that's the difference

0:36:30

between the Hypersonic weapons that we're developing and the Hypersonic weapons that that they're developing and that because their systems are dual capable that's why we think they potentially increase the risk of instability because we are only

0:36:42

acquiring conventional hypersonics and have been very clear about the way that we've messaged that we think that it'd be it you know it'd be a lot less likely that that any any country including the PRC would view uh shots of us hyper

0:36:57

Sonic systems as potentially carrying nuclear weapons because we are not developing nuclear armed hypersonics well I agree that we think that Mr McCormack from an intelligence perspective do China or Russia does China or Russia have any doubt that our

0:37:14

hypersonics program is not developing dual capable systems that could be equipped with nuclear weapons uh I think we I would prefer to take that in the Clos session well let me tell you if you can't answer that here I think we know what the answer

0:37:31

is so it's great that we think our hypersonics are not strategically destabilizing even though you have admitted that our adversaries hypersonics are but it doesn't matter what we think in this situation it matters what Russia

0:37:45

or China thinks because if we launch a b bunch of hypersonics into China to get at Targets that we want to get in China and they think or they even might think that that Salvo has nuclear weapons on it that they can't even tell

0:38:03

where they're going because that's the whole point of hypersonics right they could be going to to purely military targets but they won't know that because the whole point of hypersonics is they can Veer over and hip Beijing or whatever else at the last

0:38:15

minute that's the whole point of this weapon system that does not sound very strategically stabilizing to me Dr Horowitz if we actually do received the answer to the simple question of how you plan to use these weapons uh in December as promised can

0:38:34

you just explain why it's taking so long to get a simple answer to this simple question I'll have to take that back I think from our perspective there are a couple you can't explain there are a couple of ways to think about this the

0:38:49

one is because these weapon systems are still in are still in development the concepts of operation for their potential employment are also still in development which is exactly contradicting the advice that we gave to the department through the bipartisan

0:39:03

future defense task force report which is not to go spend billions of dollars of taxpayer money developing weapons that you don't have know how to use okay continue the department whenever it develops new new weapon systems develops

0:39:19

concepts for develops concepts of employment for their use but the specifics regarding those concepts of deployment I think some of the details that you're really that you're really looking for are the kinds of details that the

0:39:29

department has for for any weapon system when the when those capabilities when those capabilities transition certainly the department has spent some time thinking about possibilities in this regard that we can talk about in the

0:39:41

Clos session well I'm delighted to know that $15 billion later the department is thinking about possibilities for how you will use these weapons we certainly hope to have an answer by December I rest my case representative Wilson thank you Mr

0:39:58

chairman indeed uh it is bipartisan I want to thank the ranking member Seth Molton for his uh passion today and his service and with his military background he is a person who uh in a bipartisan manner we look forward to working with

0:40:12

you uh also I want to uh thank the extraordinary panel here today um chairman H uh uh lamron is doing a great job uh we've never had seven Witnesses simultaneously so um so thank you it's really an achievement Mr McCormack with

0:40:30

the war crimin of Putin's in invasion of Ukraine we observed the assistance of the democratic People's Republic of North Korea and Iran have provided with the alliance of dictators with rule of gun invading democracies with rule of

0:40:44

law it's concerning to see the cooperation among our adversaries and the western civilization adversaries is there evidence that suggests that the actess of evil war criminal Putin the regime in Teran and the Chinese Communist Party are cooperating in the

0:40:59

development of hypersonic missiles exchanging Technologies or collaboration within their own industrial base yes I'd like to reference the uh uh testimony of the Director of National Intelligence either earlier today or

0:41:12

earlier this week uh that that did talk about the increasing collaboration uh between those uh those actors uh I think on hypersonics it's still to be seen exactly what collaboration May May occur but we are very concerned about the

0:41:30

increasing uh ties between those uh those adversaries and indeed too uh Dr Weber it's critical that the United States cooperate as we see the aess of evil cooperating with their foreign Partners in the development of hypersonic

0:41:45

missiles and share the cost in developing Hypersonic programs expanding Hypersonic program efforts with our foreign Partners such as NATO partner Sweden and South Korea would undoubtedly strengthen our ability to turn foreign

0:42:01

adversaries we know firsthand of the technological industrial capabilities of South Korea and which is well represented here in Washington by Ambassador yyang dong Cho additionally yesterday was historic and something that uh America and the world should

0:42:19

recognize and that is that the formal admission of Sweden into NATO and uh ending 200 years of neutrality the Swedish industrial capabilities are crucial to establishing peace through strength Swedish prime minister ol christon deposited the instrument of

0:42:38

accession March 7th to join with NATO and indeed Sweden is capably represented here in Washington by Ambassador Urban Allen and so uh this is a time that we should be working together and we do have the extraordinary example of the

0:42:56

trilateral security partnership between Australia the United States and the United Kingdom and our bilateral plan with other partners and so indeed Dr Weber is the United States looking to expand cooperation with other foreign

0:43:10

Partners in the development of our Hypersonic and counter Hypersonic programs thank you for the question sir certainly that is one of our highest priorities as to establish Allied Partnerships to develop hypersonic and

0:43:23

counter Hypersonic capabilities as you noted we are working very hard with our uh UK and Australia counterparts under the OAS framework to identify collaboration opportunities there for again for both hypersonics and counter

0:43:34

hypersonics we're also working very closely with Norway and we've had introductory discussions with a number of countries as well and just just it's just so mutually beneficial and uh the best way and we I was really pleased uh

0:43:48

the you correct me the first Hypersonic missile attack that I'm aware of uh was on Ukraine on the civilian population of Ukraine uh and fortunately somehow I don't know how it was done but it was taken down and so whatever uh

0:44:01

capabilities uh and sadly we can see from uh the invasion of uh Ukraine the invasion of uh Israel uh that we need to be developing capabilities and we have um now a real world uh situations that should be addressed and over and over

0:44:19

again uh it's just uh inconceivable in the 21st century that we have a land war in Europe that we have Mass Slaughter and Israel and then we have the threats and challenge to the people of Taiwan and I hope every effort is made uh to uh

0:44:34

preserve the borders of Ukraine of uh Israel Taiwan and America and we look forward to working uh with each of you a you back thank you representative Garamendi uh first uh thank you very much extremely important hearing thank

0:44:54

you for uh bringing it to our attention and for all of the uh Witnesses here um there's a lot of dancing around some fundamental questions that have gone on here I recall not too long ago we had a long long debate about the lsro whether

0:45:08

it was conventional or nuclear and I think it's probably currently dual capable and now Mr Molton has raised the question once again of uh this new system is it nuclear or is it conventional and Mr herwitz you danced around this question

0:45:36

I want to put it to you very directly can you confirm at this public hearing on the record that we are not developing this new system this Hypersonic system for nuclear capability and that it is only for conventional the only Hypersonic weapons

0:46:02

the United States is developing are Conventional Weapons and not not nuclear not nuclear weapons thank you uh there's been a lot of discussion about the capabilities of the Hypersonic and its Effectiveness and the effect that it has on a particular Target I

0:46:25

think this is what Mr Molton wanted to get too and I guess that'll be in the classified setting uh the witnesses here have raised the questions about the use of a ballistic missile with a maneuverable warhead General white I think you did

0:46:43

this specifically with your testimony with regard to the hackam a hackam with a maneuverable warhead what how does that differ in its effect with a Hypersonic weapon that also is maneuverable I can certainly take that question I don't believe it was me that

0:47:07

referred to it I believe it was Mr McCormack and his testimony but bottom line is is the the point he was making in his testimony essentially what a Hypersonic weapon is is essentially a cruise missile with Ballistic capabilities if you want to add to that

0:47:20

all sure I'll I'll just add that our our adversaries are looking at a broad variety of systems some closer to ballistic missiles some closer to cruise missiles and they there's a very large design space that they're exploring and

0:47:36

each of those bring different challenges to defending against uh and so when we say Hypersonic system there's actually a lot of diversity even in within that field of of weapons that we uh see being developed I believe Lieutenant General Dale White in

0:47:54

your written testimony as I said self- pyro cruise missile hackam provides complimentary trajectories to boost Glide systems such as the arrow which I understand to be a Hypersonic imposing additional cost on strategic competitors by increasing the

0:48:12

complexity yes sir what I was referring to there it is is that uh um the Hypersonic attack cruise missile is a cruise missile that has speed range maneuverability like we talked about and so that is the focus of of of that

0:48:24

particular capability and how does that differ from a Hypersonic so it's exactly what Mr McCormick said the the the dependence on how and I can't go into too much detail here all hypersonics are technically not created equal in terms of from a

0:48:37

technology perspective but I can certainly go into greater detail and I think I plan to during the close session no the GAO suggests that a um Hypersonic is about 17 billion and a cruise missile or a standard missile with a maneuverable

0:48:59

warhead is about onethird less to achieve the same effect anybody disagree with that analysis so I think that analysis has to be highly contingent on on how many you're buying for example doesn't everything yeah so the greater

0:49:13

quantity would would be a determination I know there was some questioning from Dr llant and and uh The Honorable Shu early on about the the cost of of weapons and so we sent over an RFI that basically laid out some of the details

0:49:25

on that and and quantities have a significant impact over the overall cost but in comparison there is the more you buy the cheaper they are per unit yes sir that is correct and the total cost I'm going to yield back thank you thank you representative

0:49:43

dejar thank you chairman uh I know the Chairman's already discussed ground test infrastructure a little bit you addressed some of the bottlenecks but I wanted to go just maybe a step further with Dr Weber and Mr uh Rumford uh we

0:49:56

know it's a painstaking uh process to modernize aging uh ground test infrastructure but it's picked up speed over the last decade due to bipartisan efforts in this committee as well as the work done within your department can you

0:50:08

give the committee an assessment of our ground test infrastructure today are we moving fast enough and what areas of improvement remain uh thank you for that question uh the uh we are investing heavily and thank you for the support for for the

0:50:27

Investments needed in our ground test infrastructure as I said earlier it's essential to be able to understand how well these weapon systems work uh I will also say replicating the Hypersonic flight environment on a in a ground

0:50:39

facility is extremely complicated and so there's a lot of challenges to be able to make that happen so these these facilities are uh complicated to design I I will say that um while we have a whole nation approach and we're looking

0:50:54

at both capabilities that are in the private sector and in Academia as well as our Allied Nations um we are also very focused on improvements with our own organic DOD uh test capabilities our Crown Jewel in DOD ground test is at the

0:51:09

Arnold engineering development complex in Middle Tennessee uh these are the engineers and scientists that helped us win the Space Race helped us win the Cold War and they're helping us win in this competition that we're we're facing

0:51:22

um we as you mentioned taking aging instrumentation uh and aging facilities and modernizing them uh uh is that does have limitations and challenges to it that is why we've also embarked on some new facilities we have two new

0:51:36

facilities being developed in Tennessee at at the Arnold engineering development complex uh to get after and better understand hypersonics both in material testing which is essential to understand and improve the maneuverability and the

0:51:52

range of the weapon is how well that Arrow shell works on that weapon system as well as the for an air breathing cruise missile how well that propulsion system works and how we can better characterize the uncertainties of that

0:52:05

of that uh test regime and so uh we are making major Investments and with the continued support of of Congress we will continue to accelerate and and improve the bottlenecks that we currently have okay for sake of Time Dr Weber or either

0:52:19

of you you were kind enough to meet with me last week in my office and you all highlighted an interesting issue uh surrounding the flex ibility that would be helpful in Expediting these modernization efforts uh particularly

0:52:31

with some of the supply chain issues and some of these construction materials and replacement parts that have long lead times can you briefly touch on how you're grappling with this issue within the department and how this committee can be helpful in this

0:52:43

effort uh thank you for the question Congressman so certainly so we are making Investments now to address those critical items that do have long lead times when we work very closely with the program offices the the military

0:52:55

acquisition programs that we've been talking about and they start looking ahead to production you know we learn from them what are the the what are the long lead items that would delay the production or slow the production rate

0:53:05

down so we're making investments in the department to address that so we are we are bringing on uh new industry to expand our industrial base uh to in increase their capacity and also give us the resilience that we need okay and I

0:53:18

have a minute and a half Dr Weber secretary Shu appeared before this committee last month we briefly talked about the value of reusable hypersonics uh can you just describe in a minute or less the concept of usable hypersonics

0:53:29

aircraft and what it'll mean for our ability to project force over China and how would this capability allow us to overwhelm Chinese anti- access aerial denial capabilities for critical ISR and strike missions certainly thank you for

0:53:40

the question yes sir so we are looking at reusable Hypersonic aircraft for responsive strike in ISR missions so we're currently some conducting studies to understand the military utility of that and we were also doing some work at

0:53:51

the Science and Technology level to address the the critical technologies that we would need to burn down in order to move to the next phase for an activity or program like that okay and I will yield back thank you Mr Vasquez

0:54:05

representative Vasquez thank you Mr chairman thank you to all the witnesses before the subcommittee to discuss this very important topic I proudly represent New Mexico's second congressional district home to hman Air Force spacee

0:54:16

and Whit Sands Missile Range the birthplace of America's missile and Space Program uh New Mexico's testing and Manufacturing capabilities are critical in keeping the United States at the full Forefront of innovation and

0:54:27

there's no better place to display those capabilities than at Hallman Dr Weber the high-speed test track at hman Air Force Space is one of the Department of defense's most valuable tools to test and evaluate Hypersonic weapons and a

0:54:41

safe controlled and coste effective manner unfortunately like many pieces of critical defense infrastructure the test track for years has been in critical needs of significant updates what steps is the department taking to modernize

0:54:54

the test track and how important is it to maintain critical test and evaluation infrastructure like that found in Hollman uh for the future of hypersonic testing in this country yeah thank you for the question uh the Hollowman

0:55:06

highspeed test track is a critical asset to our development of hypersonic weapons we use it extensively for uh Warhead testing lethality testing uh before we actually conduct those tests through flight tests so it's a critical uh

0:55:18

enabler for us uh we also use it to look at weather effects as well to look at what are the weather effects or erosion effects on a on a on a Hypersonic weapon so trmc I'll pass this to my colleague from TRC but they're they're looking at

0:55:31

um you know modifications or upgrades to the hman highspeed test track so I'll just pass it to them thank you uh thank you for the question uh being able to replicate Hypersonic flight on highspeed test tracks is an essential ingredient to the success of

0:55:46

developing Hypersonic systems so it is essential to have this uh test capability we as as Dr Weber said we are making some uh mod modernization efforts and are improving some things but simply put as a nation we need a new track uh

0:56:01

when we modernize the track we have to take the track offline for a period of time which is the exact opposite of what we want to be doing while we're trying to go fast and take our more risk so while we've been making some

0:56:11

modernizations and trying to make sure that we don't impact the speed of testing we are uh studying and embarking Upon A capability to build an an additional new track so that we can have a better capability for our nation the

0:56:25

track we have now it's 70 plus years old it was originally designed to test e ejection seats in airplanes and over the years it was modified to be able to do things like test uh faster systems and missile defense capabilities and auality

0:56:42

tests but if we're really going to move after and get after um testing hypersonics we're going to need a new uh track capability in our nation thank you Mr Rumford thank you Dr Weber uh and like a lot of military infrastructure

0:56:56

research and development infrastructure in New Mexico a lot of it is 70 plus years old uh but yet we continue to be the nation's testing ground now sure we'll give you the free uh the first free mile to space for free because

0:57:07

we're at 5,500 ft of elevation uh but we need more in terms of uh investments from the Department of Defense in these critical facilities now beyond the integral role that we play in testing Hypersonic weapons we're also a leader

0:57:19

in manufacturing key components for hypersonic and other critical weapon systems uh Dr Weber what would you say are the biggest challenges to the department uh that they face in recruiting and retaining a Workforce of well-trained civilians and contractors

0:57:33

to meet the development and production demands at places like Colman yes sir so thank you for the question and that also is is a priority for us as Workforce Development as a matter of fact our joint Hypersonic transition office uh they are the lead

0:57:44

for Workforce de development for hypersonics for our hypersonics critical technology area so it's important that we work very hard to attract the scientists the tech the stem students uh as well as the technicians so it's not

0:57:57

just the scientists and Engineers but also the technicians as well and the skilled laborers who can help us with production so we through the university Consortium for applied hypersonics for instance we have uh we're funding

0:58:07

research uh with over 300 undergraduate students to get them training in science and engine in science and technology associated with hypersonics we're also working to establish internship programs for those students to come and work in

0:58:19

government or industry labs and then we also have Outreach with community colleges and Tech schools to try to attract the skilled laborers that you know that're they're coming up in those uh educational facilities to come work

0:58:31

for us in hypersonics to support our production lines thank you so much doctor and again uh I've said it before if you can test it in New Mexico you should be able to design it and manufacture it in New Mexico and you

0:58:42

should be able to hire new Mexicans for this job uh this is incredibly important to me especially with some of the best and brighten students coming out of places like the University of New Mexico New Mexico State University uh thank you

0:58:53

all for your service to our country for your time to discuss this important topic and I yell back thank you chair thank you uh representative bacon thank you thanks for being here it's a very important topic Dr Horowitz

0:59:07

and Dr Weber so China is putting nuclear warheads on the hypersonics do we have any evidence of Russia doing anything like that okay maybe it could be someone else yes thank you for the question yes we have uh believe that both both China and

0:59:26

Russia are looking at conventional and nuclear armed Hypersonic weapons so then I go back to the uh the original two was going to ask are we confident that it's not right for us to do the same if Russia and China are putting nuclear warheads on Hypersonic

0:59:42

Delivery Systems why isn't that we're not and you I know you mentioned a little bit because it's confusing it's a conventional Warhead or nuclear warhead but doesn't seem to be stopping the Russians or Chinese so are we confident this is the right

0:59:54

decision I I think that the department is confident in the in the nuclear deterrent and you know that's something that we could you know we could talk about further in a in a different session you know in a closed session but

1:00:05

I think the department has has every confidence you know in the Triad and is making tremendous Investments to ensure the modernization of the Triad we view Hypersonic weapons in particular as most useful as regionally ranged

1:00:19

conventionally armed systems because of the way we think that they enhance the capability of The Joint Force to you know to complete a variety of different missions So based on the expense of each delivery uh vehicle you mentioned this a

1:00:34

little bit what are the what are the best targets go after because they're they're expensive so you have to get a value you have to hit a valuable Target so what is the right kind of targets so sir uh thank you for the

1:00:48

question we obviously can't talk about the specific targets or missions here in this session but each of the systems that we're developing have different attributes uh just like other weapons in our Munitions portfolio or Tools in your

1:00:58

toolbox they have different attributes that make them most suitable for for different missions for various missions and so that's why we're developing a suite of hypersonic capabilities the suite of hypersonic capabilities that

1:01:08

we're developing complement each other and they complement the rest of our joint force uh the other thing that's important to understand is that we're developing capabilities that can be deployed from all of our our domains air

1:01:17

Land and Sea our air Land and Sea domain and that's important as well because that complicates the adversary's decision calculus which increases the deterrence effect and it also makes it more difficult for the adversary to defend

1:01:29

against just my concern is at the expense of each weapon you have to have very particular high value targets that Mak sense it's like shooting us shooting Patriot missiles at you know 122 millimeter rocket or something just got

1:01:43

to make sure it's worth the value now so talking about the air Land and Sea domains who determines the Right Mix because if I understand right the air launched portion is actually fairly it's more less expensive because it's easy to

1:02:00

configure the Hypersonic to the airplanes already but with the surface ships the subs and the ground you have to deliver or develop the whole launcher which I think is a lot adds a lot of price tag to it so how do we determine

1:02:12

the Right Mix yes sir so ultimately that that is determined through the recommendations in our program and budget review that we conduct each year in the Department of Defense so in our program and budget review there are a

1:02:22

number of studies and Analysis that inform that uh studies and Analysis performed by The Joint staff by Cape by acquisition and sustainment research and engineering and the services uh so we bring together a number of studies

1:02:34

analysis to inform what are the capability gaps that we have what are what are the needs uh what are the solutions that we have to address those needs and we address those collectively through our program and budget review which are which result in

1:02:45

recommendations that ultimately end up in the president's budget okay finally and I quick question for General White Secretary Kendall recently noted that the Air Force is more committed to the hypersonic attack cruise missile

1:02:57

instead of the air launched rapid response weapon yet I think we're still testing both what is what is the air the service position on which one or is it both so right now uh we we are still in the final phases of Arrow and we will be

1:03:12

testing that we'll be wrapping that testing up second quarter of 24 and then again we when we're in the classified session I can go into a little bit of detail about the difference between those two capability specifically and it will highlight again what

1:03:23

characteristics you need based on the mission set so both weapon systems still may be in play uh currently right now we we do not have the the arrow in the 25 budget however we are continuing to analyze the the test data that we have from that

1:03:37

that capability okay thank you gentlemen I appreciate it I Y thank you representative carbahal thank you Mr chairman and thank you to all seven Witnesses I think this is a record for the amount of witnesses at one of the

1:03:49

hearings I've attended uh Fielding our own uh hypersonics capability seem to be eluding us even as our peer adversaries are finding success in this technology this is a technology that might cause the taxpayers billions without delivering

1:04:06

the intended result but it is a technology we need to continue pursuing to keep Pace with China and Russia and to allow ourselves to better understand the threat I think research is critical to understanding and deploying new any

1:04:20

new and emerging capability our nation is lucky to have some of the top universities in the world leading Cutting Edge research Cal paully St Louis Epal is in my district and it is working with the Air Force research

1:04:33

laboratory on building a lewig tube wind tunnel capable of mock 6 to conduct Hypersonic research Dr Weber or Dr Horwitz can you speak to the importance of University re research plays in supporting the development of

1:04:50

capabilities like hypersonics and do you think it is important for the Department to continue these type of research Partnerships thank you for the thank you for the question Congressman our universities are one of our asymmetric

1:05:04

cap uh edges uh they're very important to developing our Hypersonic capabilities they bring the the best and the brightest ideas and scientists and Engineers uh into the into the ecosystem that we need for to develop Hypersonic

1:05:16

systems uh as I mentioned before with the joint Hypersonic transition office we established the university Consortium we have uh over 100 universities in that University Consortium and that we're funding to do applied research so one of

1:05:29

the key things about this University Consortium is that uh we are working with them to to conduct applied Research In addition to the basic research that's funded by our service Labs so that partnership is is key again it's our

1:05:40

it's one of our asymetric advantages that we have and the relationships with the universities are also important for developing identifying and developing those Next Generation capabilities as well Dr Horwitz absolutely I I agree with Dr

1:05:57

Weber completely our universities are an enormous comparative advantage and our investment our investment in them and the knowledge they produce has been critical to the military technological Edge that we've enjoyed for decades and

1:06:09

hope to hope to continue to enjoy whether in hypersonics or in other areas your answers would have been perfect if you said the best universities are in my district but uh one potential way to drive down cost of hypersonic systems is

1:06:22

to make them reusable Dr Weber can you described the concept of a reusable Hypersonic aircraft and what it will mean for our ability to to project force over China how would this capability allow us to thwart or overwhelm Chinese

1:06:37

anti- acccess area deniable denial capabilities for critical ISR and strike missions thank you for the thank you for the question so a reusable Hypersonic aircraft would would take off and land on a conventional Runway just like any

1:06:50

other aircraft but it would accelerate to Hypersonic speeds and cruise at Hypersonic speeds to perform Miss misss the missions that we've identified would be responsive strike and ISR so it it would give us the ability to deliver

1:07:02

effects and to collect is ISR very quickly uh much quicker than our traditional bomber forces would thank you Dr Weber can you describe the timetable for development of reusable Hypersonic aircraft and what are some of

1:07:15

the key technology development targets you're looking at thank you so we are currently uh addressing critical Technologies for Hypersonic aircraft um with reusable aircraft one of the key differences between U that system or that

1:07:30

application and say a weapon of course are the reusable structures so there's a lot of work that we have to do in the Science and Technology world to address the materials and structures for reusable Hypersonic aircraft also the

1:07:41

propulsion systems are are different in the sense that they're combined propulsion system as opposed to single uh a single type of propulsion system so reusable materials and structures propulsion systems power generation is another key

1:07:54

technology thank you in 2018 Congress recognized hypersonics was one of the six key Technologies in the office of under Secretary of Defense and research and Engineering was established to drive the te technological development

1:08:08

required to secure the Homeland and War fighter deployed abroad Mr Weber how confidence confident are you that we are on track to lead on this technology and if we are not there yet what will it take to get there so thank you Congressman so I'm

1:08:24

confident that this that we can deliver this technology and this capability into the hands of the warf fighter it's important for us to maintain our national will and our national commitment to this area we have made good progress and we are at the

1:08:35

threshold of delivering capabilities to the warf fighter in the next couple of years thank you I thought I'd ask you some softball today since you were getting grilled earlier uh with that Mr chair I'll yield back thank you

1:08:47

representative strog thank you Mr chairman I thank each of you for being here today uh as I've said many times before Huntsville Alabama is no stranger here to hypersonics I'm thankful for the chance to have this discussion uh with

1:08:59

all of you today and especially glad to see one of redstone Arsenal's own here today Lieutenant uh General rash welcome uh the standard of Excellence and dedication to the mission set by Rick toe should be an example for the entire

1:09:13

department Dr Weber uh I also appreciate you taking the time to stop by my office last week my first question is for you General rash and Admiral Wolf the Navy uh conventional prompt strike CPS an army long range Hypersonic weapons

1:09:29

program were uh structured to go into production earlier than traditional M missile development programs uh once the flight test phase is complete do you believe the CPS and the lhw uh will uh complete their flight test phase this

1:09:47

year thank you for the question and um it is good to be here the absolutely uh we're doing everything we need to do uh within both the Navy program and the Army program with our industry Partners uh to get ready to continue on with our

1:10:01

flight test program this year thank you can you briefly uh speak to how the joint nature of these programs uh has contributed toward their success thus far yeah I'll take that one to start I I would say Sir as we've talked about in

1:10:16

the past this is a program that I think is unique to some of the things we've done in the Department of Defense um although we're not a joint program um as general rash and I have talked many times we are so linked to a common

1:10:29

success which is a common all up round um which we will deploy both in an from an army tail from a zomalt or from a a Virginia class that makes us very unique and although we are budgeted separately we run our individual portions

1:10:43

separately everything we do has to be done together because it's not one or the other being successful it's both being successful and I think that's driven us driven us to get to the point we've got although arguably yes we've

1:10:56

had some challenges but I don't personally believe tradition a traditional program with one service doing it would be where we're collectively at today I agree uh last month the Press reported on a meeting between the Secretary of Defense and uh

1:11:10

the def defense industry asking companies and I quote to accelerate Hypersonic weapon development uh as us lags behind China close quote while I agree with the sentiment and uh glad the department is communicating with industry

1:11:25

uh the principal way to do this is through contracts and funding putting your money where your mouth is Admiral wolf and general rash do you believe the common Hypersonic Glide body program uh has the manufacturing infrastructure and resources ready for

1:11:42

production Congressman with with this this uh committee's support and congress's support over the last several years we have made the investments in the common hyperglide body uh in industrial base to support the requ requirements for the Army's program uh

1:11:57

in the near-term and the Navy's program as well uh with flexibility to scale up uh in the out years as needed thank you would you uh say in general these programs have gone faster and uh cost less than typical missile def uh uh missile development

1:12:14

programs these these programs U CPS and lrhw are significantly uh faster much more aggressive schedule than uh than traditional programs mean we're five years years we're into the fifth year of of this activity from the Army's

1:12:28

perspective uh traditional Army missile programs anyway or anywhere 7 to 10 years so we're well ahead of schedule uh cost you it's expensive going fast you pay a you pay a price um but it but then again we're we're seeing a lot of that

1:12:41

up front uh versus on a traditional program it would be spread out over a longer period of time thank you Mr Rumford our national hypersonics test infrastructure is in inadequate to meet current and future demands of current

1:12:53

and Next Generation hyper Sonic programs uh how is the uh test uh Resource Management Center balancing uh Investments across industry and Academia um to complement government facilities and accelerate testing and Fielding of hypersonic

1:13:12

weapons thank you for that question uh we definitely need to have a whole nation approach for our test infrastructure we have such of a bottleneck within our own government facilities we're not going to be able to close the gaps or Nation needs to if we

1:13:26

only rely on government facilities so we absolutely are partnering with the private sector and and there are some very Innovative approaches that they're taking that is giving us new opportunities to do testing as well as

1:13:40

looking at what uh what availability that we have in Academia and Academia uh tunnels as well as our allies equally also have Hypersonic test capabilities and we're looking to leverage all of those to be able to meet the gaps that

1:13:53

we need to take we need to thank you thank you Mr chairman I yeld back thank you and last but not least we have the representative from Indiana uh representative Banks thank you Mr chairman Mr Rumford what else do you

1:14:07

need from Congress to scale the mack TB program so Mack TB and thank you for that question uh Mack TB is actually a GameChanger to how we take things aren't um if you look at traditional acquisition and what the the three

1:14:23

gentlemen to my left have to do is often when they're doing their all up round tests there's a whole set of components that are all being tested for the very first time what mock TB is really Brad is this gamechanging approach that we

1:14:36

have Hypersonic flying test beds things that we actually can't test in a ground test facility like a new radio system a new com link we can test in a very reliable repeatable type solution with mock TB so mock TB is an essential

1:14:51

solution that we're we're we want to move forward on from a from a standpoint of support from Congress absolutely is the approach of funding we definitely need funding to be able to move forward and to scale the program to the size we

1:15:03

need from an authority standpoint we believe that we mostly have all the authorities we have one of the things that we're looking at when we use private sector activities is understanding that public private relationship and who has the

1:15:17

responsibility so for example we we're part of the Mack TB program is looking of leveraging commercial space Ventures like vaa that is launching into space and then we're looking at using the re-entry aspects as a Hypersonic profile

1:15:33

um when we use commercial sector like that private sector like that understanding who has the insurance responsibility and understanding how that balance is it's wonderful when things go right but we need to be prepared when things go wrong and having

1:15:47

and so we are embarking on a new era of of a public private partnership and that's where we'll seek support from Congress so we can really take mock TB to the level that we need it to be okay so thank you so bear with me a little

1:15:59

bit if Congress increase funding what could you do with it if we gave you just flat funding maybe what the president requested what does that mean either way give give us give the committee an idea of what what more you

1:16:15

could do with more money or what would happen if we so so what we could or decrease the funding thank you for the question sir what what we could do with more funding simply put us more flights and that's that's what we need the the

1:16:26

the uh limited opportunity of flight test means that new technology developers have to wait some cases months if not years to be able to get on a flight manifest to run if we start having mock TB flights much more frequently and we're designing an

1:16:41

infrastructure to be able to do 50 flights a year suddenly you can now be in a mode where a technologist can be developing their technology at the fastest Pace they can and ready to be able to go on a flight test as soon as

1:16:54

it's available it's it's like having an airport that has a lot of opportunities to get flights or having an airport that flies an airplane once every three months it's we really need that flight volume up good way to put it how would

1:17:07

failing to meet the testing schedule harm other Hypersonic programs it it it's it's like molasses to an engine it slows everything down by not having that volume of flight uh uh uh throughput so we absolutely want to be able to

1:17:22

increase the number of flight tests that we can do okay I really appreciate what you do I think it's really important I speak on behalf of uh everyone in Indiana and saying we would it would be great to host you in Indiana at Naval surface Warfare Center

1:17:37

crane if you would be able to come I I would be I would personally like to join you and show you the important work that's being done at crane on behalf of all hoers and everyone who is very proud of what's going on there absolutely my

1:17:50

my father's a proud graduate of Purdue my family is originally from Indiana I would be I welcome an opportunity to uh take that visit Sir Mr chairman we got him on the record so I'm looking forward to hosting him in Indiana um we saw in

1:18:03

the president's budget request yesterday that the Fielding of the Navy's conventional prompt strike missile has been delayed a year and that the Navy does not plan to buy any more CPS missiles in FY 2025 vice admiral wolf

1:18:16

wolf can you confirm that uh this delay and budget cut is the result of the conventional prompt strike program's testing struggles and not the result of a decision by the Navy to deprioritize the missile yes sir so it's not so we're

1:18:30

not we're not slowing down getting dis Z Walt okay um yes some of the issues that we've had have slowed down us getting into the na into the army Fielding which then the Navy falls behind that but we are still all in moving forward to get

1:18:44

to zoom Walt as quickly as we can that's first and foremost that has not changed um some of the some of the funding requests that you've seen have been a result of trying to balance the program and some budget instability even as

1:18:57

we've tried to understand across what we might get as an appropriation in 24 and then trying to understand where that would put us in 25 to get the entire program executed so that's a round procurement issue that's not a a lack of

1:19:12

wanting to get to every one of these platforms as rapidly as we can thank you my time has expired and representative you mentioned crane which is in Indiana which does great work and Purdue University I've visited Ed them as well

1:19:25

and they have excellent a growing Hypersonic capability on campus uh we are now have about to go to votes they moved it up half an hour on US so in about three minutes they're going to call votes but they should be done roughly at

1:19:43

5:15 so as much as I wish we could do this before we head off to votes we're going to have to take a recess for approximately 45 minutes and then reconvene at 5 15 for a Clos session in the skiff upstairs so thank you for your

1:19:59

cooperation on that we will now be in recess

1:21:23

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